geothermal worth the investment?

James Day_2

I'm thinking about getting certified as a geothermal installer. What is everyone's take on geothermal. Is it worth investing the time to get certified. I'm not sold on it yet. Seems like it is growing in popularity. Any preferences on equipment?



Thanks, James

PeterNH

High Capital Costs - Low Operating Costs

Hello James,

I'm not sure where you are located.  If you are in the Northeast check these folks out.

http://www.northeastgeo.com/

They are a very top shelf operation.



Peter

meplumber

My $.02 worth.

James here is one guy's opinion for you.



We do quite a bit of it. Our customer base is mostly extreme high end second and third homes. It isn't hard to install and seems to do the job of heating and cooling the home. I cannot make any claims to energy savings. I just don't know. It is expensive to install. Very expensive. But hey, they can afford it and they want to feel good about themselves.



I have done Florida Heat Pump (a Bosch company), Hydron, and WaterFurnace. Personally I like WaterFurnace. Their tech support is top notch. I like their products and if you have their Modular User Interface (MUI), you can plug into the card onboard and have full access to the operating parameters and programming.



If you decide to get into, I would advise going to as many classes as you can get your hands on from several different manufacturers. Education is power my friend.



Side note. I am not a fan of the "Pump and Dump" systems. I will only do a closed loop system.



Good Luck.

Mark Eatherton

Consider...

AIR source heat pumps.



There are many issues with GSHP

s that are raising their ugly heads, like, what happens during a drought when the ground dries out and loses the majority of its thermal conductivity?



GSHP shines in a cooling predominant area, with vertical bore holes.



Air source heat pump have a variable speed capability that eliminates the need for buffer tanks.



Personally, I see ASHP's eating the GSHP peoples lunch, especially here in Colorado, as well as other heating dominant markets. The "heat source" is THE most expensive item, beit lake loop, slinky loop, trench loop and especially vertical bore hole loop. With ASHP, none of this is required, and the device (Daikin, pronounced dike-in) is variable speed, soft start technology, which makes it even more compatible with Solar PV systems. When properly applied with the right PV solar system, the efficiency of the PV system can be boosted to as much as 60%, versus the typical 20% currently on the market..



Just food for thought...



As for certification, it seems that ANYONE can pass the test, and there are no ethical standards for the people who pass the test (IGSHPA), so in some cases, you are competing with people who have no ethical standards and will do anything to make a sale, and in some cases will cut corners creating even more problems.



I guess this applies to pretty much any of the certification programs out there. I just received notice from Colorado that they are now enforcing an ethical standard, if you are caught doing anything considered unethical, you can lose your license over it. Now THAT will get your attention...



ME

Jean-David Beyer

Side note. I am not a fan of the "Pump and Dump" systems.

Some friends had a "pump and dump" system that worked quite well. But they were probably a special case. They had an existing unused well in their basement, and were located very near (measured in yards) from a lake. Their contractor was a serious environmentalist and would install heat but not A/C. He test pumped the well to see if it had adequate capacity: it did. So they pumped the water into the evaporator, and dumped the chilled water into the lake where, in the fullness of time, it probably soaked down into the water table from which the well get its water. The thermal mass of the lake must have  been enormous. The heat from the condenser heated the house. Initial cost was high, but operating cost was low. This was in the Pacific northwest in Washington state.

meplumber

Just a thought for Mark.

ASHP is limited through physics on its operating capacity by enthalpy.



At about 7 btus/lb enthalpy, the ability to absorb heat through the refrigeration cycle becomes severely limited. We do Daikin systems as well and love them. However, we are unable to get heat out of the reversed cycle below about 10 btus/lb enthalpy.



I personally like to combine the Daikin or Fujitsu mini splits with radiant heat. I strongly prefer that over Geo. I have quite a few structures with this combination and the occupants are very happy.



In a conversation with an engineer from Fujitsu, I was told that the limitations of the reversed refrigeration cycle are being pushed already. (Ask the now defunct Acadia Heat Pump Folks about that.)



I agree that GEO has some issues. But the engineers continue to spec these systems and someone is gonna make money off of it.



If I have to recommend a system to a homeowner I lean toward ASHP's. But at over $.14 per Kwh here in New England, this has to be sold correctly.



I think you are right Mark. I think we will see more movement on the ASHP side in coming years than we see on the Ground source side. We just have to remember that there is no "One size fits all cllimates" answer.

Mark Eatherton

Understood...

And acknowledged. It also has a lower upper operating temperature that will limit its use to large surface area, high conductivity radiant heating systems, so it ISN'T for all applications. It also lends itself quite well for radiant cooling when used with radiant ceilings/walls.



Once one understands the limitations, they can design a "system" around it...



With the movement towards super insulated homes, and the use of off peak power, one can "bank" btu;s to carry the building through low ambient temperatures, thereby avoiding issues associated with low ambient temperatures and inherent inefficiencies.



ME

TonyS

Why do you not favor pump and dump

I use a pump and dump in my own home. I pump 4.5 gpm across a cupronickel exchanger and dump it into a creek. I have a constant 57 degree water supply and only have to supply 1.5 gpm per ton. It seems to me that closed systems run cooler on the source side and sometimes freeze.

For sure there is nothing magic about them, basically a heat pump with a water cooled coil and a big plastic pipe radiator in the yard. Everyone's getting in on the game,Rehau offers pex fields with their press fittings.

But from what I understand, and I am not an expert, the warmer the source side and the cooler the load side the more efficient the system becomes. So a pump and dump tied into a low temp radiant system would make the most sense?

Besides obvious problems like bad wells and deep and dirty wells what problems do you have with pump and dump?

meplumber

Climate Tony.

In New England, specifically here in Maine, we have a 4-5 foot frost line. Also, in my part of Maine (an island and its coastal anchor) we struggle with well yield and quality. We have a couple of real horror shows from pump and dumps installed by others up here.



Vertical bore holes, very deep and grouted is the only way to insure quality heat transfer up here.



Not to say that it won't work in your area. I know that James in on Long Island. I suspect he would experience similar water quality issues to mine.

CMadatMe

Not Sold

I still cannot come up with the math that say's I won't be in my grave 3 times over to recoup my added investment of geo over a condensing boiler and high seer a/c system.

TonyS

That depends Chris

My three ton water to water geo was the same price as a prestige boiler. My existing well and constant pressure pump could easily produce the 4 1/2 gpm needed and the small creek aside of my home was a perfect dump. I used a 40 gal solar tank as a buffer and a tekmar outdoor reset control. The cost to install was about the same as a condensing system.

I live in Pa so our winters are not nearly as long or cold as others and well water is very plentiful and clean. Places like mine where the situation is right, it is hard to beat the cost of operation. I plan on removing  my lp prestige from the shop next year and installing another pump and dump 2 ton in there. Propane prices are insane nomatter how efficiently we burn it.

CMadatMe

Tony

Was that cost the same as a consumer to include the labor or your cost? To be fair we have to talk consumer cost.

TonyS

It was about the same

The load side with the buffer tank was very similar to any primary secondary arrangement and the source side was water from the well in and a flow restrictor.

No gas pipe, only a # 12 wire, I would have to say the same if not even a little easier.

Definitely a bit louder than a mod con, If I were to install one for a customer I would have to sound insulate a little better.

That being said, I agree with you, If I had to do an entire field or drill wells I cant see the payback.

Jack

You are in the business

Until you go to all the classes you can and have a very clear understanding of the features/benefits/costs you cannot make a reasoned assessment as to whether you should get into it or not. If, after all the training, you decide not to get into it, you will be better able to serve your customers needs based upon a solid background.



I did a bunch of them for the "very wealthy" back in the late 70's. I wouldn't put one in my house. I'd get really good at mini-split heat pumps, because they are getting better and better at a fraction of the cost/hassle...and with your savings you can put in a modcon with them, if you insist;)