Radiator Vents Spewing Water. Help!

MPR

Alright.  To start, I am a complete babe in the woods when it comes to plumbing and home repair (to my Wife's chagrin), but I need some help.  Here's my problem...



Some of my radiators are spewing water out of the air vents.



My wife and I bought our house  (built in 1927) almost two years ago.  Steam heat, single pipe system 9 radiators throughout the house and it came with a relatively new (2006) Burnham boiler that had been serviced annually for the first three years.  For the first two heating seasons that we owned the house, the radiators worked fine.  No strange noises other than the usual hissing and expansion and contraction noises.  Up until two weeks or so ago, I never paid any attention to our boiler and how it operated.



About two weeks ago, two of our radiators started spewing water out of the steam vents in the side (vari-vents for what it's worth), about a pint or so from one an maybe a half pint from the other.  Also, we started experiencing what I guess is water hammer from a couple of rads.



We had a plumber by yesterday and he switched out the vari-vents on both of the problem radiators, switched out the pig tail on the boiler and checked the pressuretrol which seemed to be working fine (pressure gauge however is another issue) and wouldn't you know, but this morning, not only were the two problem radiators still doing their thing, but now another one was too!  Needless to say, not to happy about paying for a plumber who didn't fix the problem, but seemingly made it worse.



Also, not sure if this is relevant or not, but this summer we renovated our bathroom and in doing so we removed one of our old radiators and replaced it with a new one.  I only mention this because it was the only modification that I can think of to a system that had been seemingly working fine.



Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.



Thanks,  Mike

Long Beach Ed

Quick Fix

We see this problem often where very fast vents like Vari-vents are used and piping is less than optimum.



For a start, you can try replacing the Vari-vents on the spewing radiators with slower vents, like a Gorton #4.  or a Hoffman 40.  These vent the air more slowly which reduces the velocity of steam entering those radiators.  That should permit the condensate to drain back down the pipe. 



Perhaps by replacing one radiator with another, you increased the steam velocity entering the two problem radiators. 



You should also make certain the main has a good vent at the end, like a Gorton,  and that the vent is operating properly.  Also check the water level and water quality in the boiler.  If you know how, check that the pressuretrol is set low and working properly.



Of course the problem is probably rooted in improper boiler piping or pipe sizing, but slowing the venting of the problem radiators may let you live with the bigger problem.

MPR

Thanks!

I've kind of been giving myself a crash course on steam heat systems.  The water level is a little more than half way up view pipe, and it is pretty murky looking.  It also fluctuates up and down 2+ inches as the water is heating.  The plumber we had by said that it was ok.  We're planning on having the boiler inspected this year anyway.



The pressuretrol was supposedly set around 2 psi and is supposedly in working order.  According to the service records on the boiler it was replaced 3 years ago.  Do they have an average life span?  I ask this because the pressure gauge on the boiler goes up to 10 or so PSI when the boiler is firing up, but I've seen elsewhere on this page that they can be unreliable.  It seems to me that if the pressuretrol is working properly than the gauge is kind of extra. 

Long Beach Ed

Problems

A quality cast iron boiler should easily last 25 years if cared for properly. 



Looks like yours is needs some help.  Ten pounds of pressure in a heating boiler is an indication that something needs attention. 



Both the high pressure and murky water can be causing your spitting vents. 



A water line that's bouncing two inches further indicates problems.   The high pressure is safety related, and should really be corrected by someone knowledgeable.  It's not a normal or safe condition.

nicholas bonham-carter

spitting rads

it is no mere coincidence that these problems follow the radiator replacement. i suspect that some oils, and impurities have by now worked there way down from the new radiator, and with this in the boiler water, the boiling has become unstable. also, the pressuretrol may have become plugged, raising the pressure to excess.

have a look here for postings on "skimming", which can be a good do-it-yourself project for the novice. you may need your plumber to make sure you have a skim port.

get the steam books from the shop here and you will soon become a steam hero in your wife's eyes. as you learn how these systems work, and therefore how to diagnose, and fix many problems.

 

 recently there was a post showing the endoscopic view of the pressuretrol and its cleaning, which would probably help your situation. don't expect miracles from the plumber, as much of the troubleshooting on these systems can be painstaking. when you have read up on these systems in the"steamy deal" from the shop here, you will be able to see which plumber knows his steam, and which does not!

since you are uncertain of the accuracy of your gauge, plan on installing a second accurate one [0-3 psi, gaugestore.com], and i would also suggest in the end a vaporstat.

longbeach ed has hit the nail on the head as regards the venting-you definitely need More main venting and slower radiator vents.

just remember that the goal is to make the system work as well as it once did when first installed:quiet, even, economical, and comfortable.--nbc



here it is in this posting:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/134254/Pressure-is-Rising

icesailor

Plumbers, Heaters and spewing water:

MPR,

There are Plumbers, Plumbers who are also Heaters, Plumbers who think they are Heaters and are not. There are Heaters, there are Heaters who think they are Plumbers, and Heaters who are neither. A lot of Heaters know a lot about scorched air and forced hot water but when confronted with steam, are clueless on how it works and just think that that old steam system is just a funny hot water system that has funny controls on it. After almost 50 years of twisting pipes, I never considered myself an expert on steam. Where I work, there is very little of it. But I have been learning. I'm still no "expert" but I do know more today than I did two years ago.

I would say that the "plumber" that looked at your system, may have been a good Heater but maybe not the best Steamer. To a Wet-head "Plumber", 10# in a gauge is just fine. Hot water systems run at 12# average. To a Steamer, it's like the rattle of a rattlesnake. What the Fructose?

What I have learned here would have taken me a career to learn somewhere.

Pictures, we love pictures. I like to see how things were done. Show a picture of your replacement boiler and the near boiler piping. I've been finding a serious case of institutional "I don't need to read no stinkin piping diagrams from the manufacturer." They know it all. REALLY!! Then, there's the new radiator, How was that piped. I've learned that venting steam is a science in to itself.

If you post some pictures, you will get the consensus of some of the most knowledgeable steam heaters in the country.

Send some pictures.

MPR

grateful

for the replies I have gotten so far.  I will take some pictures of the system, piping etc.  to post.

MPR

Ok. Here's some pictures

The ultimate irony is that my wife started her insurance career at Hartford Steam Boiler Insurance co.



These were taken a few minutes ago.  We have had our thermostat set and held at a constant temperature since last night.



Let me know if more detail is needed on any of these.



Thanks for any input!

nicholas bonham-carter

piping peculiarities

if you can get the model number from the boiler, and go to the burnham website and look for the installation manual, this will show the minimum piping diameters needed for your boiler. compare what you have with the required, as it is difficult to see from the pictures whether the riser may be too small, as a result of which  it may be allowing too much water to shoot up into the mains.

the pressure should be much lower which would help the situation, in addition to changing the vents on the radiators, and the mains..--nbc

BobC

needs flushing and skimming

That boiler was not piped properly when it was installed,

  -There is no steam header or equalizer.

  -It has no equalizer and might want two steam outlets used instead of the single one  you  have now.

Compare that piping to the suggested piping in the installation manual for that boiler, if you don't have one tell us the make and model # and we will show you where to find it.

 

That said November is not the time to start repiping a boiler.



If the pigtail was checked and the pressuretrols operation verified I would not trust the original gauge, they are not well made. You said the pressuretrol was replaced a few years back so it should be ok, but of course you can't be sure.



You might want to install an auxiliary 0-3PSI gauge to see exactly where the pressure is. The 0-3 PSI should be installed on the pigtail with the pressuretrol. Also open up that pressuretrol and make sure the wheel is set to 1, that should make the high limit about 1.5PSI. If the 0-3 gauge starts to climb above 3PSI, shut the boiler down and install a plug where it was mounted (AFTER the boiler cools down) so you don't damage it and find out whats going on with the pressuretrol. This thread goes through the problems old gauges can cause - http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/138537/High-pressure-any-ideas



You said the system seemed to work ok before that radiator was messed with so it seems that work brought a lot of crud down into the boiler. That boiler should be flushed and skimmed to get the dirty water out of the boiler. The water in the sight glass should be clear and should not bounce up and down more than 1/4".



 The air vents on the radiators should be replaced with something that vents A LOT SLOWER than the HeatTimers (Gortons, Hoffmans, Maid O Mists), the radiators should be vented slowly and the mains quickly. The main vent in the cellar should be checked to be sure it is working and large enough to vent the steam mains quickly. How long are the steam mains and what size pipe are they?



Between the cleaning and installing the correct air vents you can probably get that boiler under control.



Bob

Rod

Steam System Problems

Hi Mike-

   Thanks for posting the pictures as they are a big help in determining what is wrong with your system. You've already gotten a lot of good advice from others. Here again is a basic outline of what we think are what problems your system has and I've included some sources and links that might be of help to you.

1. Your boiler piping is improperly configured. Who ever did the install knows very little about steam and obviously can’t read as it shows what the minimum proper piping configuration is on Page 17 in the Independence Installation Manual. (See attached copy)

The near boiler piping is extremely important in the production of good quality dry steam.

Here’s a link to a video explaining the importance of near boiler piping:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping



2. Your boiler needs skimming.  When you installed the new radiator there apparently were oils inside the radiator and these have gotten into the boiler water. These oils float on the surface of the boiler water increasing the surface tension so that the steam has to gather together into large bubbles to break through the surface of the water. These bubbles break through quite violently and carry water up into your piping. The fact that you boiler’s waterline is bouncing so much in the glass sight tube is evidence that this is going on. “Skimming” is the cure for this. See this link for info on skimming:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/138635/Need-help-Putting-off-skimmg



You’ll need to have a plumber install a nipple and a pipe cap on the skim port of your boiler so that you will be able to skim the boiler from this port. (See the I&O manual,  Page 6, Tapping “L” for the skim port location)



In one of your pictures it looks like your boiler’s water level might be too high. See page 17 in the manual, the waterline should be 28 5/8 inches vertically off the floor when the boiler is cold. If it is higher than that just drain off a little water till it drops to that level. If there isn't a mark at the 28 5/8 inch level, mark the sight glass at this point with a magic marker.



3. As others have mentioned your main vents need to be checked for proper size and operation. See if you can find a name and/or number on them and also post a picture of them. You should have a main vent on each of your steam mains.



4. Get rid of the vari valves and install, as Ed mentioned, a slower radiator vent. Most radiator vents have a float valve which helps prevent water spurting out. Vari valves don’t have this float.



5. Steam systems operate at a maximum of 2 PSI and a lot of steam systems operate at much less than that. With steam, lower pressure is better and it saves fuel.  Your pressuretrol and pigtail may need cleaning and the pressuretrol needs to be adjusted so that the operating pressure is below 2 PSI.



Here’s an article of steam heating that maybe of help to you:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/321/Steam-Heating-Basics/128/A-Steam-Heating-Primer



The are also some very good books on steam heating available in the shop section of this website. As a good introduction to steam  I would recommend “We Got Steam Heat!”

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence

This book is written for the homeowner new to steam heating. It’s easy, humorous reading and in an evening or two, will put you light years ahead in your knowledge of how your steam system works.

Let us know if you have any questions. Steam Heating can be a bit confusing at first but is actually really easy to understand once you know the basics.

- Rod

MPR

main vent.

Thanks for all this great information.  I kind of figured that the new radiator install would cause some problems.  Seems to make sense that when you're opening up a closed system that anything new might disrupt.  It's too bad that the pros I hired weren't aware of that.



In the advice I've been getting there is mention of a main vent.  I took some more pictures. Is this what is being talked about?



If so, how does one go about checking whether or not it is functioning properly.

BobC

Hoffman 75

That green thing is a Hoffman 75, when the system is getting up to steam it should expell air till steam hits it and it closes. Be careful using your hands, steam burns are not fun. Use a piece of tissue paper to see if it's expelling air.



Is that the only steam main?

How long and what diameter is it (or them)? With that information we can tell you if it's large enough to get all the air out of the main quickly.



Bob

Rod

Main Vents

Hi Mike-   The green thing in the pictures is a main vent and looks like a Hoffman #75 which is a mid range main vent. See if you can some numbers off the vent just to make sure.

The purpose of this vent is to allow steam is able to push the air out of the main so it can be displaced by steam.   Air passes through the vent but when hot steam reaches the vent it closes and keeps the steam from escaping.  DO NOT test vents with your hand as live steam can give you a bad burn. You maybe able to hear the vent "click" it closes and you can also test the vent using a strip of newspaper. Hold it up so the paper is near the top of the vent and you should be able to detect the escaping air by the movement of the paper strip. When the vent closes the movement of the paper, of course, stops.  You should have a vent like this on each one (or something very similar) of your steam mains. The use of the vari vents on a system is quite often an indication that the main vents are either lacking or inoperative.

I'm a bit confused by the pictures as I can't seem to trace out your piping. Could you take some more pictures standing farther away from the boiler so that the boiler and piping leading away from the boiler is in the same picture. (We can blow up the pictures if we need more detail)  Take the pictures from several angles around the boiler so we can see where different pipes lead.  How many steam mains do you have? It would seem that the people you have had working on your steam system, while they maybe able to connect pipe, unfortunately know very little about steam. This situation is more common than you would think. Steam systems,when they are setup properly, are very comfortable and economical.

- Rod

MPR

more pictures

Tough to get a read on the main vent, but looks like it said Hoffman # 74 if such a thing.  Was also able to see something on it that said "pressure 35," but actually it doesn't look like it attached to pipe coming out of the top (riser?).



Here's some more pics from different angles.

Rod

Boiler Piping Okay

Hi Mike- Good News! The latest pictures you posted show that your near boiler piping is okay.  The first picture of the boiler piping you posted  (the one right after the white radiator with the leaky var -valve) led us to believe the piping coming off the boiler was completely different. I think with a boiler flush and some  skimming, things should be back to operating properly.

I'll look over the pictures a bit more and see if there is anything else that stands out.

- Rod

MPR

glad I posted them

I'm going to be talking with our plumber tomorrow; the same ones who installed and had serviced the boiler until 2008 (the previous owner was an old lady who died in 2008 then we bought in 2009).  I am going to ask them to flush and skim to start with and see where that takes us.  I'm also looking forward to reading, "We Got Steam Heat!" and tackling some of the DIY maintainence myself, but not until I've read the book. 



Thanks everyone for posting.  I've learned a lot just from this alone and feel I have the confidence now to at least hold my own in a conversation with the pros.  I'll keep you posted.

Steve_210

I think

The return lines are clogged

MPR

clogged return lines

Hi Sprinter,



What makes you think that?  Just wondering for when I need to talk to someone about possible fixes for this problem.



Mike

Steve_210

It sounds like

Condensate is backing up in the mains causing water hammer and pushing water up into the rad & vents. I would flush and replace if necessary. Then skim and clean as MANY times as necessary

Steve_210

Opps

Looks like you have dry returns. Still you need to get that water clean

Sorry my mistake

Gordo

Those Hoffman's

May  be of the type for vacuum systems ONLY.  If so, they should have never been left installed on your system when the coal boiler was removed.  I'd have them changed to Gorton #2s.  Better venting and no vacuum problems.

Steamhead

The Hoffman #74

is a higher-pressure unit heater vent. Because of this, it has an extremely tiny venting hole, making it almost useless on your system.



The #76 is the vacuum vent.



How long is your steam main, and what pipe size is it?



Also, the steam takeoff from the header should come out the TOP, not the side. In its present position, water can get into it and be pulled into the steam main.

MPR

The Hoffman # 74

@ Steamhead



I'm not fully versed in the terminology used, could you explain using the picture in the middle of the set which each of the things are you're referring to?



Looking at the top 1/3 of the picture you'll see two white pipes going to the left and right of the picture, one with the hoffman coming off of it goes to the left and one partially hidden by another pipe that goes to the right. 



The one with the hoffman on it attaches to the boiler somewhere on the side.  Better shown in the 7th photo as partially hidden by the autofeeder.  That "line" also runs connects to 4 of the radiators in the house.



The other white pipe.  The one that runs to the right of the photo does not have a vent on it and that "line" runs to the remaining 5 of our radiators.



There is a pipe that comes out of the top of the boiler (riser?) that connects to a horizontal pipe (header?) and from that horizontal pipe, the "line" that runs to the right of the photo (to 5 of our radiators) connects to that.  I'm guessing and correct me if I'm wrong, that that is a main line.  If so, I believe it is a two inch pipe that runs maybe 30 feet  across the basement before it breaks off to the lines that go to the radiators.

What is also not shown in the middle picture is that there is a another line that connects at a right angle to this line and runs towards the back of the house and connects to a radiator that is basically above the surfboard that you can see in background of several pictures.



I guess my other question is how is the other pipe, the one with the hoffman on it, gets any steam at all.  Also for what it's worth (and I'll bet a lot, based on what you guys have taught me so far)  that is the line that attaches to all of the radiators that have been spitting water.  I still haven't really been able to pinpoint the water hammer though.