System Losing Water

Long Beach Ed

We're at wits end here. 



We install about three dozen steam boilers each year and over the past two decades have run into every problem we can imagine, including many leaky steam systems that lost copious amounts of water. 



This one's got us nuts. 



I'm putting this out here for some suggestions.  Maybe there's something we've overlooked. 



The system began losing water about five years ago when it was steamed with a Burnham Jubilee vintage 1965. 



This summer we installed an IN4 Independence.  The loses continued, of course with greater impact owing to the reduced water capacity of the new boiler.   It loses a GALLON a day.   We have a meter on the feed line. 



The <em>simple</em> system is in a three family home with an open basement.  Ten radiators installed in 1930.  Single 2" main.  All runouts are visible.  The only pipes not visible are vertical risers to second floor. 



The basement is heated with a condensate hot water loop off the base of the boiler.  The returns were partially hidden.   We pressure tested the loop and isolated it with ball valves. 



We replaced all the returns.  



Filled the system up with water to the main and saw a 1" drop in three hours. 



Can't find a leak.  No water in or under boiler.  Pressure tested boiler before installing it.   Tightened packing nuts on radiator valves, checked all Gorton vents.  Replaced main vents. 



Any thoughts on this one? 



Thanks Gentlemen. 



Eddie

Tim_Hodgson

Could you

have a small leak in the steam chest of the boiler(warranty). It would only leak a small amount of steam while there was pressure and hide as flue gas. Try capping off the air vents and pressurize the system and have an ultra-sonic test performed to find where the air is escaping. At 1 gallon per day, I would have thought it would be more obvious.



Good Luck,

Tim

Long Beach Ed

Thanks, Tim

I was supposing that our next step would be pressurizing this thing with air.  We filled the system with water, at least up a bit above the mains but found nothing.  Just ordered the 1/8" plugs. 



Yep, this is what's got us.  A gallon's quite a bit of water, and the weather here is mild so the system's not even building pressure. 



Think we'll hear a leak at 20 lbs or so? 



Thanks again!



Ed

nicholas bonham-carter

Mysterious leak

Is there a back flow preventer which could leak unnoticed from the boiler side of the feed-water circuit? Oftentimes I notice they have a little tube straight down to a floor drain, which could pass water unnoticed.--nbc

icesailor

Loosing Water/Backflows:

NBC, Back-flow valves are not supposed to be installed AFTER the PRV, like between the PRV and the boiler. I've seen some Heaters do this. Where I work, it is pretty standard to install shut-off valves on either side of a Watts 9-11 PRV/Back-flow so you can service them without draining the system.

As far as finding the leak, I would have my trusty air compressor out and running right away. I test and drain everything with air. My air compressor is the most used tool in my truck. You can blow the water out of a system, tank or boiler in a fraction of the time it takes to pump it out. Steam boilers excepted if you have a lot of working air vents. But if you block some, it will work well. Plug all vents and the air will find the leaks. If it is in concealed returns, if there is water in the pipes, the air will blow it through the leaks. Listen for the air leaks. Another trick I use when it gets out there, I blow peppermint extract into the system. Sniff for the smell. I suppose in a steam boiler, it might smell like peppermint when the system is fixed and venting, but it will go away.

I once had a person call me about a water leak he had in his kitchen ceiling in his multi-million dollar home. There was a frozen, broken pipe somewhere and the water was coming through the lights in the ceiling. The regular plumber wanted to tear down the ceiling to find the leak but he wouldn't come for three weeks so he should get someone else. I was someone else. The leak was 22' away in the garage, in the wall behind a sink in a bathroom over the garage. I cut a hole in the back of a sink cabinet that faced an unheated ventilated knee wall and fixed the leak. The leak was no where near the kitchen.

Whenever I do a lot of piping, I test it with air. That way, you don't need to drain out the water if you have a leak.

Long Beach Ed

Yes,

This little system lost 3 gallons of water in sixteen hours, and that's in 40 degree weather.  Not a trace of the water or steam.  Keep waiting for it to come back, but there's nowhere for it to hide. 



Thanks for the notes on compressed air.  We'll bring the compressor over there next week and we'll find that sucker.   



I trust ti's not the boiler.  The system lost about 500 gallons of water per year for the past five years with the old Burnham Jubilee boiler.  Yet when we took it out, it was like new.  Same with the returns.  We expected to find holes and mung everywhere.  We must have great water in these here parts. 

icesailor

Loosing Water:

It has to be loosing it in the return, that is concealed. It has to be condensed water. I was taught that 1 cup of water converts to 1200 cups of steam. Therefore, if if you loose one gallon of water, if it was steam, it is 1200 gallons of steam. I would think that loosing that much steam, you would have seen it. If you can isolate the return, and blow it up with air, you will find the leak.

Long Beach Ed

HAhah

Ice -- I'm with you, but we changed every piece of pipe below the water level.  We were SURE it was the returns for the same reason.  Usually is.  So out came 40-feet of 1-1/4" Schedule 80 pipe.  And you know what?   Wasn't a leak in it.  It was clean and sound. 



So now we have copper returns.  New, copper returns. 



Last night we lost THREE gallons of water.  That's got to be just about the entire steaming load for the 16 hours.  (At 50 degrees, the boiler probably ran a total of six hours)



Thought maybe the gate vale on the return at the Hartford Loop was closed, but we feed into the return, and that's how we fill the boiler.  



The entire shop is thinking of this one night and day. 

crash2009

You got everyone guessin Ed

  Just thought I might as well throw mine in there.  I was going to say that maybe the meter is not counting right.  But then I re-read your post and noticed that you said you filled it up with water to the mains, and saw a 1" drop in 3 hours.  That kicks the hell out of my guess. 



Has anyone opened the chimney inspection/cleanout door?  to see if there is any water in there.

Long Beach Ed

This job...

This job is going from bad to worse.  Just came back from a "no heat" call there. 



Seems the month-old Hydrolevel VXT just gave up it's Chinese ghost.  Just buzzing but not feeding.  Same failure as six out of thirteen others we installed this year.   Hope it wasn't sitting in the supply house for more than two years or we'll have to eat it. 



--------



The boiler was pressure tested before we installed it. 



Also, its predecessor, a Burnham Jubilee, was suffering the same water loss.  We suspected the boiler, but when we pried its 46 year old section apart, they looked like the day they were cast, with no corrosion at all. 



We filled the system to the main and found nothing leaking in the boiler. 



I suppose a pressure test with air will find the problem.

nicholas bonham-carter

Must be somewhere?........

The leaking that is. As I understand the problem,

The boiler is new, and pressure-tested.

The condensate loup is valved off after testing.

The returns are new, and no leak can be seen.

When the boiler was over-filled to the main, an inch of water was lost.

The only part left is the makeup water feed circuit-could that be the exit point for the water?

It must be a leak which needs no pressure.

What a challenge, and I am sure we are all waiting to hear about the solution.



Ice, I know how a back flow should be installed, but there are knuckleheads out there in the contracting, and the inspection community, who knows what the installation history is for this system?!--NBC

icesailor

I know you do:

NBC,

>>Ice, I know how a back flow should be installed, but there are knuckleheads out there in the contracting, and the inspection community, who knows what the installation history is for this system?!--NBC

I just wrote a reply to this and it was deleeted from the note.

Happens all the time. It must not have been relevent.

Long Beach Ed

Feeds...

Nothing special about the feed.    The Chinese VXT feeder is valved on both sides; twith the valves turned off.  Removed now since it died after a week.  There's a bypass globe feed valve, also turned off.  These feed directly into the wet return. 



Upstream from the feed is a double check valve. 



The feed doesn't really enter the picture. 



Thanks for your thoughts, guys.

Ron Jr._3

500 gallons of water

a year in the past 5 years ? Wow ! That kind of loss and you said you changed all the returns and they still looked sound ............  



My guess is anything above the water line can be rotted and leaking too .Multiple spots . I remember a job in Brooklyn where we replaced 2 inch pipe in 8 or 9 places on a main . Severe rot . Not sure if it was a defect in the pipe or just a leaky system .... Had another one a few months ago where someone replaced a steel riser with copper and it's leaking somewhere in the wall . Found it by accident when changing the vent .



Like the other pros said , the compressor is the best bet . Never used one on steam but it should work once everything is plugged . We use one for baseboard jobs and 20 psi is enough to tell us if there's a leak but not enough to pinpoint it . Steam might be different but I'd go higher if you can't hear the leak or leaks . Maybe try Ice's peppermint trick too with the compressor !



 Good luck Ed .

Long Beach Ed

Gotta Love this One...

Okay, so we go there today with a compressor, fittings and 1/8" plugs for the radiator vents. 



We find a boiler that hasn't lost an ounce of water during the past four days of some serious steaming.  It was 42 degrees outside all night and day.



We're going to watch it a few days before we pressurize it and cause more problems. 



I would offer that perhaps the system was dry, that the water trapped in the bottoms of the radiators was all dried out from the summer and had to be restored... but we must have put 15 gallons into this system in the past three weeks. 



I'm not even trying to figure this out. Maybe a leak that rusted closed?  A cracked pipe that moved shut?   A intermittently blowing vent?  



I'll report back in a few days. 

crash2009

I'm out of guesses

The old Hydrolevel was lying to you.  Hopefully the new one isn't.  Just couldn't be that simple. 

Long Beach Ed

Hydrolevel

I wish it was as simple as the VXT but I know it isn't.  The water would disappear from the sight glass.  I would add water manually. 



Again and again.



About 15 gallons disappeared from that boiler and most of it was added manually. 



The Hydrolevel failed the same way half of the ones we install fail: It stopped feeding.  Even the manual feed switch "locks out".  It works fine for a few days after it's turned off then on again.  We're done with them.  Back to Uni-match with a separate water meter. 



We're watching this thing for a few days then we'll decide what to do.

Gordo

Is it Possible

someone is playing games with you, that is taking water from the boiler while you're not looking?



Sorry you're having problems with the VXT.  Have you called them to express your concerns?

Long Beach Ed

Absolutely no games...

Nope, this is a three family house that (thankfully) we own. 



I'm the only one with access to the boiler room or the returns. 



The Hydrolevel folks are fine; I'm sure they'll make good on their faulty feeder.  Their vendor has a dozen times in the past.  Just got to check the build date when you buy them.  If they are old stock and they don't work, you've got to eat them.  That's why we've stopped selling them.   Great concept - undependable product.

Gordo

VXT

We've had good luck with them so far, esp. "old stock"  (knocks on wood).



The nightmare for me is not one that stops working, for there is always manual feed.



No, the nightmare is the one that doesn't stop feeding until the water is squirting out of the vents all over someone's irreplaceable parquet floors.

Hap_Hazzard

This is a well-known phenomenon.

When you're totally prepared to diagnose a problem like this, it will never show up. Just leave your air compressor next to the boiler and it will probably never lose a drop of water again, and if it does, don't be surprised if your air compressor doesn't work when you get there.

nicholas bonham-carter

auto/over-fill

maybe [especially on a new installation], these devices should be valved off, for a period of time.

when the owner/installer comes over to check things out, then he can turn it back on and observe what happens. this would prevent slow returns from confusing the feeder, in spite of the time delay.

i wonder if a sight-glass mounted on a "surge-column"  would be more accurate for the lwco, and pump control, especially in the early days when only 2 skimmings have been done.--nbc 

sreja

How much water is it normal to lose from steam boiler

I have a related question..



We just had a vxt-24 water feeder installed -- partly to see how much water was really being lost from our boiler on a regular basis.



In an ideal world perhaps no water would ever be lost from a perfect steam system, but I understand that in practice one expects to lose "some".  The question I have is how much make-up water should be considered problematic.



Now the VXT-24 manual has a chart for recommended make-up water levels -- great!

But I don't understand how to interpret it with regards to my boiler.



The VXT-24 chart shows

"Net IBR Rating MBH" vs Gallons/Month Limit

Up to 90,000 -> 6

91.000 -> 120,000 -> 8

121.000 -> 150,000 -> 10

151.000 -> 185,000 -> 12

185.000 and Higher -> 15



We have a Peerless 211A-08.  In the peerless manual it says the output is 1176 MBH.



So does that mean I should be looking on that first row, and get a value of 6 gallons per month?  1176MPH seems so far below the VXT24 chart starting level it makes me think i'm not reading this correctly.



Can anyone shed some light?

Long Beach Ed

Losing Water Again

We brought the compressor back to the shop and today, we're down three gallons again! 



Perhaps Monday's the day  that we'll troubleshoot this mess. 



...



To  "sreja, " the guy asking about reading his "water loss charts":  Your boiler is rated at  1470MBH according to Peerless which means 1,470,000 BTU per Hour.  It's a monster.  The VXT Chart is prepared with smaller residential boilers in mind.  For a beast of this size, you're best to check with the manufacturer.



Many manufacturers specify much lower numbers than those on the chart.  Burnham, for its IN8 Independence boiler, limits acceptable fresh feed water to 2/10 of a gallon per month, or 3 gallons per year. 



More important than the amount of water added is the condition of the water.  Some water is heavily laden with impurities and salts which are detrimental to cast iron.  Some boilers' designs are more tolerant of the consequences of added fresh water.   Water quality is especially important with bigger, more expensive boilers, where special water analysis and treatment is often recommended to protect the investment.



All steam systems, no matter how tightly constructed,  are open to the atmosphere and thus suffer losses through evaporation -- some more than others depending on dozens of varying factors. 



What's important is to keep the system in good repair, as tight as possible and choose a boiler that is suited to your conditions.

Aaron_in_Maine

Plugged pig tail

I had one a few years back that the owner was adding water every morning when he wanted to take a shower.  I did not know much about steam at the time.  I was told by another tech later on that the pigtail was plugged.  Hope this might help.

sreja

losing water

Thanks so much for you insight, Ed!

icesailor

Finding leaks with air:

I can't think of a single leak I used air on that I didn't find quickly.

I've had houses freeze up with broken pipes in walls and ceilings. I don't cut holes in walls and ceilings unless I hear the sound of rushing air. When I do new gas pipe, I test it with 100# of air. If it holds for an hour, I put on the 5# gauge and get the test. If it doesn't leak at 100#, it will not leak at 5#. Trying to find a 5# leak is a lot harder than looking for a 100# leak. If I can't hear it, leak detector will show it.

And my final attempt would be an odor-ant. But if it won't hold 15# of air, you will find it.

Long Beach Ed

Finding Leaks

Pressurized the system with air today and went leak-hunting. 



The building has eight cast iron sectional radiators, a big Sunrad and a small cabinet convector.   Removed the pressuretrol and plugged the relief valve.  Removed each radiator vent and main vent and plugged their fittings.  Stuck an air fitting in the pigtail tapping of the boiler and closed the sight glass.



The system would not hold five pounds for more than a few seconds.



The Sunrad is almost directly over the boiler room.  Its union was leaking badly at five pounds.  Because of its orientation, any water leak ran down the pipe instead of onto the floor.  Tightened it. 



Raising the pressure to 40 pounds found four other radiator unions leaking.  We tightened them.  Doped one stubborn one.   



After that work, the system held forty pounds of air pressure for at least ten minutes with no decrease. 



Looking back, I have no idea why we lost water level on a cold system.  Perhaps we had a air pocket in the hot water loop off the base of the boiler?  Or maybe the return that we replaced had a small leak after all that we had overlooked.



We pipe our small Burham boilers with 3" drop headers.  This gives us extremely dry steam.  We size the boilers very conservatively and vent our systems well, so they operate at very low pressures.  The resultant low pressure dry steam makes it very difficult to spot a steam leak. 



Hope we found the problem.  What do you think? 



Now we'll switch out the DOA Hydrolevel VXT feeder and we hope we're done with this beast for awhile! 



Ed

 

gerry gill

Interesting thread.

I'll have to keep that air testing idea in the back of my pea brain in case i ever run into a similar situation..sorry for your grief, but thank you for sharing the saga with us..you've employed some interesting troubleshooting techniques that i wouldn't have thought of. Thanks for the troubleshooting education.

Long Beach Ed

Thanks, Gerry

Always great reading your posts too! 



I'll follow up here when I see how this system's doing.  

Losingwater

Losing Water

Hi, I have exactly the same problem, after replacing return lines, still losing gallons of water per day. I read the thread and it seems you ran compressed air through the system looking for leaks? Is everything ok now?

Long Beach Ed

All Fixed

Yes, all is well.  Did five systems like that quite recently.  We like Independence boilers which have a rather small water content, so after we install them, system leaks present themselves quickly.  The boilers also have a rep for not appreciating fresh feed water in massive quantities which motivates us to fix the system leaks.



Always loose radiator unions, sometimes leaky radiators. 



Just plan on spending a couple of hours, stock up on 1/8" plugs for the vent holes and have a young helper who hasn't lost his hearing yet.