Water seepage from chimney cleanout

Glen_7

I have a one year old De Dietrich h/w boiler. Wilo smart pump, 7 zones including a Super Stor tank. I was outside working and noticed steam coming from the chimney. I assumed it was some of the water burning off from the heavy rains we had the day before. I went in the basement today and noticed water seeping out of the cleanout door below the boiler flue. It is definitely coming from the chimney and not the boiler or near boiler piping. This has happened before but I always attributed to a crack in the stone chimney cap (since fixed) allowing rain to enter. That is definitely not it as we haven't had rain in a week and there is a puddle on the floor with water trails coming from the cleanout. I had an energy audit last year and was told the boiler was performing very efficiently (I think 91%).



Any suggestions as to what may be going on would be appreciated. Thank you.

Mark Eatherton

Not a good thing...

If it hasn't rained in a week, and you are seeing water coming from the chimney, it is (may) an indication that the flue gasses are condensing in your flue, and that is not a good thing. Condensation will eat the mortar out of the between the bricks, and then the bricks will collapse into the flue gas passage way, thereby blocking flue gas exit. Your energy auditor may have been proud of what he was in the way of thermal performance, but he obviously doesn't understand the mechanics of boilers and flues, otherwise he would have warned you about the danger of the situation.



Not sure what kind of adjustments can be made on the De Dietrich , but if this is a 3 pass boiler, sometimes there are internal baffles that can be taken out to raise the flue gas temperatures and avoid this situation.



Got pictures?



ME

Glen_7

Water seepage from chimney cleanout

Mark,



Thank you for responding. I will try to post some pictures later. What specifically would you like to see? The De Dietrich is supposed to be a near condensing boiler, not a true condensing boiler. Does that matter?

Glen_7

Pictures

Mark,



Here are some pictures of the boiler and area in question.

Thanks.



Glen

Mark Eatherton

Bad news...

ANY "near condensing" appliance is REQUIRED to have a venting system compatible with condensation. If you don't have a stainless steel liner all the way up the chimney, it is going to cause a serious problem. If you do have a SS liner, and there is no drip tee at the bottom, then it is still going to be problematic.



I also don not see an barometric damper, which is usually a requirement of all boiler manufacturers. It controls excess draft. Could be it is just not showing, but if it is not there, I'd look at the installation manual and see if it is supposed to be there.



ME

HDE

Right on ME

Pictures seem to confirm a missing barametric and no chimmney liner as it appears the galv flue pipe is cemented into the masonry.

The installation looks to be done with planning & craftsmanship, how could he miss or skip these?

Glen_7

More pics-damper and chimney

Mark,

I attached a picture from anothe rangle which shows what I believe is the damper.

As respects the chimney, as you can see from the picture, it is fairly tall. I would guess from the area where the boiler flue enters to the top is 35 feet. On the top is a concrete cap which I would guess weighs about 300 lbs.  I don't see how I could get a liner done without major scaffolding, etc.  My chimney liner is clay tile in good shape.

So the question remains, can this problem be fixed without a liner by doing an adjustment on the boiler? When first installed the gun had a 190,000 btu ring. Since the boiler ran a lot, that ring was changed out for a 250,000 size. This is the first heating season with same.  The boiler is a 3 pass and does seem to have baffles. Would this be the first step?  Are their diagnostic tools to check the flue gas temp before and after?

Sorry for all the questions but I want to get this fixed asap. There is the equivalent of a quart of water on that floor, which seems like a lot.



Glen

Glen_7

Sorry-didn't attach pics

Here is a picture of the damper and the outside of the chimney

Robert_25

stack temp

Has anyone measured the stack temperature from this boiler?

Glen_7

Stack temp

Robert,

Not that I know of. I know when I had the energy audit they put a probe in the stack and told me the boiler was running well, but they weren't looking at it from the viewpoint of condensation or proper chimney, just efficiency. They were doing this while they had a blower door running to create negative pressure or something.



Glen

Mark Eatherton

If it were around here...

It wouldn't pass inspection. Just because you have VCT lined flue does not allow you to dump cool condensing flue gas into the chimney. Also, the barometric damper has no required spill switch, creating an even more dangerous situation that could harm you or worse.



Energy auditors are NOT supposed to do the negative pressure blower door test with any gas fired appliances venting into a chimney being ON. The negative pressure created by the blower door will cause all products of combustion to be drawn into the house.



I looked up the De Dietrich USA installation manual, and it is somewhat grey, but it does appear that there are some removeable baffles that can be removed, and will allow for a higher, non condensing flue gas temperature.



It is also a manufacturer requirement that the appliance be commissioned and tested and a copy of that report must be registered with the manufacturer in order to retain manufacturers warranty.



I'm thinking you need to have a heart to heart talk with your installer regarding these issues. Sooner rather than later...



ME

icesailor

Spill Switch on Barometric Damper:

Mark, are you saaying that in Colorado, they require a spill over safety switch on an oil fired boiler with a Fiels "RC" draft control?

AMH112181

gas burner

That's a gas burner notice the gas valve to the right of the burner.

Glen_7

Moving forward

I am going to call a chimney company tomorrow about the possibility of doing a liner. Can a spill switch be fitted retroactively? If I do get the chimney lined, should I still have someone come buy and check the combustion readings, etc?



Thank you.

Mark Eatherton

Good move.

At least YOU are paying attention. Most people would think it is normal and ignore it.



Check with the burner manufacturer for their recommendations on the spill switch, as well as location,mounting and wiring instructions.



Ice, I don't speak oil :-)



All gas appliances (except water heaters, imagine that) are required to have spill and roll out detection switches.



Also, to the O.P., now that you will have control of the condensate, remember that you will probably need to neutralize the acidic waste prior to discharge in a sanitary sewer system.



ME



EDIT: I forgot to answer your question regarding service. Most manufacturers require annual inspections of the appliance the equipment to insure safe operation. Once every 2 years at the most.



ME

Glen_7

Update

Mark, and others.....



I had a chimney company evaluate the chimney and boiler today. They said it should be lined, but I wasn't comfortable with some of their responses. They said they would use a six inch liner, but my boiler specs (and current near boiler vent) call for 7 inch. When I mentioned that, they said six would be fine and that it would help with the condensate. When I asked about a drip tee and condensate line to my sump pump, they looked at me like they never heard this before. This is what I was afraid of, and they have very high ratings on Angies List, etc. Am I overreacting or am I right to be concerned about them possibly being knuckleheads? Thank you.

Mark Eatherton

Well....

You can't judge a book by its cover.



The venting code I am familiar with WILL allow for a one pipe size decrease, provided that the charts, based on input, height and venting considerations are met and within the acceptable parameters..



As for them not wanting to put a drip tee in, they may not be familiar with the appliance with which you are dealing. I looked in the Installation and Operations manual, and with the exception of a concentric venting system, drip tees are shown on every venting consideration. Show them the I&O manual and see what their response is. If they still resist you, keep looking for another contractor.



Thanks for keeping us posted. Much appreciated.



ME

Glen_7

Update on nightmare

So I thought I would give a final update on this project. I had another chimney company come and advised me that since I had a 12 X 12 flue, getting a 7" liner all the way down would not be an issue. A tee was also set up at the boiler outlet with a condensate drain and I also hooked up a neutralizer for the feed to the sump pump. This was done a few weeks ago and everything seems fine. I get very little condensate out of the stack, and I found a local pro that is going to fine tune and maintain my system.



Here is the nightmare part. Over the year or so the boiler was operating without a liner, enough condensate got through the joints in the flue tiles to saturate the area over the mantle in the living room, as the boiler flue and the fireplace flue share the same chimney. I found out there was hidden damage when our most expensive painting fell off the wall at 3 am. It sounded like a gun shot. Further probing showed the sheetrock and canvas covering the original plaster was soaked and full of black mold. Now that the water problem is solved, I spent the weekend taking all the plaster down to the brick, let it dry, and tomorrow the wall gets refinished. I will post pictures if anyone is interested. If you have a customer resisting a liner, feel free to use this.