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No Rebate? Require Manual J & Manual S Worksheets

We had installed 2 4 Ton Ruud 16 Seer AC Units...expecting rebates as advertized by the government...

But now I am told we need Manual J & S Worksheets to get rebate...

Our contractor Atlantic Cooling & Heating who knews that we went for these high eff.Units so that we can get the rebates says "No Manual J Worksheet"...I never heard of it...Can you find form and I will help you fill it out...?

I don't know what to think here..

Thanks

Comments

  • Empire_2Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343
    Same Here!

    I to have not heard of requirements like you stated.  Even if required, how would the rebate providers know it was accurate and not just fill in the blanks.  Man."J" can be provided by most contractors and I would think on line.  It's always good to plot your home to see the potential Heat loss and Gain. 

    Try to resend the rebate and have your contractor sign off on it.  Q:  Dear Mr. Rebate:  The heat loss/gain tells you the furnace is way over sized and you declined my rebates.  Did you know I am adding 1500 sq/ft in Spring?  Who are they to even decide this product rebate?

    Here in lies the problem.



    Mike T.
  • John Mills_5John Mills_5 Member Posts: 935
    What rebate?

    What rebates are you talking about? Is this some state thing as the federal tax credit doesn't require this. I've certainly heard of utilities giving rebates that want to see the Manual J on the home, haven't heard of Manual S requirement before. But these are to show that the right size equipment was put in. I can see it though these worksheets can be doctored up. The idea is to get efficient equipment out there and improperly sized (typically oversized) is not efficient.



    If a HVAC dealer doesn't know what a Manual J is, that's pretty sad.



    https://www.acca.org/industry/system-design/speedsheets
  • AthanaAthana Member Posts: 88
    Reply

    Thank you Mike & John..so very nice of you to to give suggestions.

    John the Rebate is the New Jersey Clean Energy offer that they always advertize but in the end it seems not willing to give...unless it is Contractor that is not doing what he should.

    If an HVAC guy gets a chance to respond to this question it would shed light on which it might be.
  • Empire_2Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343
    Athana

    Not sure what you are really looking for but I know John and I have been inn the industry for a while.  Both HVAC guy's.  Your contractor should be helping you apply and receive these said rebates.  If there is a new rebate in your area, Your contractor should be aware of it and willing to give you the info you require.



    Mike T.
  • AthanaAthana Member Posts: 88
    Reply

    Thank You Mike...and John.

    The Rebates are from the State I think...

    njcleanenergy.org
  • richardplacerichardplace Member Posts: 10
    Manual J

    In regards to the high efficiency heat pumps you had installed.To get a state license to install HVAC systems the person has to take a test by the state board.Manual J is used as part of this test.If the contractor isn't licensed,get a permit to due the job then pass inspection by the local inspection then their won't be a rebate.



     
  • Manual J

    Below is a link to the rebate form for the New Jersey Clean Energy rebate. As mentioned, completed Manual J and Manual S reports are required for the $500 rebate.



    in section "C", the contractor must sign a statement confirming that the heat gain/heat loss performed on the structure conforms with the procedures set forth in Manual J.



    http://www.njcleanenergy.com/files/file/Residential%20Programs/Cool%20Advantage/101_CoolAdvForm-2011-2-15.pdf



    I am well aware that Manual J, according to many, is a pain in the butt, but you must keep the following in mind:



    - Most of us in the industry have been grossly oversizing air conditioning equipment since the beginning of time



    - Rule of thumb, down and dirty, estimating methods do not work



    - We no longer design systems so that we can hang meat in our living rooms



    - Learning any new software or procedure takes time and a commitment to learning it correctly



    - Fudging numbers to make the Manual J results match selected equipment is just plain wrong (especially since you are signing your name to a statement that you did the calculations properly)



    Here is where many contractors get caught up in the Manual J issue. A customer calls up a contractor and asks for a price to install an air conditioning system in the house. The contractor, doing the right thing, sends a salesman or estimator out to the jobsite to size up the equipment. Since doing a Manual J can take a long period of time, especially if you are not familiar with the process, the price of the job often includes the costs involved in performing the Manual J calculations. Now, here is where it gets frustrating.



    The customer, with Manual J in hand, contacts other contractors and says, "I have a Manual J report that says I need a 4-ton air conditioning system for my house, can you please come over and give me a price for the installation of this system?". With all other things being equal, the price presented by the initial contractor will inevitably be higher than any subsequent prices given. So, the contractor who did the initial legwork doesn't get the work.



    Here's my take on how this should work:



    Customer: "Can you please give me a price on installing an air conditioning system in my house?"



    Contractor: "Of course, ma'am. Have you had a Manual J or other industry-accpted heat gain/heat loss report prepared for your home?"



    Customer: "No. What is a Manual J?"



    Contractor: "Well, a Manual J is an engineering report that tells us exactly what size air conditioning system you need to have installed in your house. Without a Manual J, we would simply be guessing about the system you would need."



    Customer: "So what's wrong with guessing?"



    Contractor: "Well, if we put in a system that is too large, your house will be cool, but you will likely have excessive moisture in the house. Too much moisture can encourage the growth of mold in your house and lead to a number of respiratory ailments. In addition, larger equipment costs more to purchase, install and operate. If we put in a system that is too small, it will operate all the time and not be able to meet the comfort requirements of the house."



    Customer: "Wow! It seems that I need to have a Manual J calculation done. Where can I get one?"



    Contractor: "I'm glad you asked. Our company can provide you with the Manual J report. The cost of the report will be $200 (or whatever), but here's the best part. You can take this report to any number of contractors to get prices for your job. Of course, we would like to give you a price as well and, if you use our company to install your equipment, we will credit you the cost of the Manual J report."



    Customer: "Great! Let's set up an appointment."





    Okay, Okay! Back to reality.



    Doing an accurate Manual J takes practice. You cannot wake up one day and decide to do a Manual J on the fly, nor can you send a salesman out on a job to do one without having training to do so.



    Yes, you can learn Manual J on your own, but there is a significant learning curve associated with it.



    Personally, I spend 5 weeks with my students teaching them the right way to do a Manual J. This will provide them with results that can be trusted, not a set of fudged numbers.



    The whole purpose of an energy rebate is to reward individuals for doing it right.



    So, let's do it right!
    Eugene
  • don_9don_9 Member Posts: 395
    so true

    I often wonder how some can select a piece of equipment without know sensible heat and latent loads.Manual s is just important as the manual j if you want to do the job right.To bad they did not ask for the manual d calculations being that play a major role as well.

    Did a load calc for a builder last month.came up with a 1 1/2 ton system.He wanted a 3 ton system bc that what the customer was wanting hearing from others.Then on top of it the builder left no room in regards to the distribution system.His reply to me was your quote is 2400 dollars more then the last guy and he quoting me on a 3 ton system.

    My reply was well we all know what our work is worth so let him have it.Truthfully i ponder for about a week if i wanted to just drop my pants and do the job being work is so slow and i need to feed the family.After sitting back and running the numbers again and thinking of all the issue to follow i made a three point shop in the waste basket with this project.

    i have herd for years that it how you educate the customer as to rather you walk away with the job or not.Well i assure you nothing change other then it has gotten worse the lowest price get the job.

    Enjoy the game today everyone.
  • Too True Don

    Nice to have a voice from the "trenches". I hope all is going well with you, Don. Long time no speak.
    Eugene
  • drhvacdrhvac Member Posts: 189
    I agree

    I am an hvac contractor in NJ, and I do the paperwork for these rebates all of the time. After doing the load calculation for a number of years, its fairly easy to do, and it gives me peace of mind that the equipment is sized right. To the person who started this original post, the other important factor about getting the rebate besides being 16 seer is the eer rating, it must be 13 or greater. Sometimes the higher tonnage equipment has a 16 seer, but the eer may only be 12 5. It's hardly going to make a difference in your electric bill between the 12.5 and 13 eer, but you WON'T qualify for the rebate. This may be why your contractor is dishing you. If you could let me know the model and serial number of the equipment, I could look it up for you.

    The way i work around doing all the extra work doing the load calculation and not getting the work is I give just what the homeowner wants, an estimate. I estimate the size of the equipment based on what they have, and alot of experience, then I tell them if we agree to a price, when I come back to measure and get a deposit, I will also do a load calculation to assure the equipment I estimated is correct. If i am off a 1/2 ton or so, the price difference is not that much. same goes for heat. And NEVER do a load calc. and give it to the homeowner before getting the job, because they will do what was said above. Tell other contractors the tonnage they need, then get the cheapest price.
  • AthanaAthana Member Posts: 88
    Thanks for follow up..very nice to put such an effort in suggestions.

    Richardplace: I wondered if maybe the installer did not have a license but he has some sort of State Lic #..and advertizes.. ****** Remodling Heating & Air Conditioning with a huge impressive professional truck..! Not to mention he charges a WHOPPING price per day when we got him to do some other plumbing work.

    He insists that he never heard of a Manual J & no one has ever asked for such a thing....

    Drhvac: Thank you..I confirmed that the EER was up to requirements with Plumbing Supply House to be sure when units arrived here.

    Mr.Silberstein: Thank you.I can not imagine a $200-300 difference (because of inclusion or exclusion of Manual J) would sway any customer one way or another for AC install. What swayed us was we had only one estimate... PSE&G..and the difference was in the thousands ($16-18K)..not including any bit of duct work required (as this house already is ducted for AC).



    In this house we sized the units according to a Manual "N" so to speak...the measuring instrument was my body..(N is for Nicholas : ) The ancient units installed in this 1874 house were done about 1979. Two 3 ton units..of which one was upgraded about 2000 to a 4 ton. The 4 ton side produced sufficient coolness..the 3 ton,not quite enough.So I told the AC guy what what I felt we needed,he looked at the job and he agreed...two 4 ton units. The cooling has proved itself just right..I must say what an incredible luxury and much less electric. Being in food service work discomfort is a way of life in the summer for us.

    Anyway the State encourages the people through a loudspeaker..buy an efficient Central Air Conditioning unit over 16 Seer and get a $500 Rebate...I did my part and bought it, when I apply they come back with more requirements.. They should add to they're adverts.."Manual J & S required"...because they are deceiving the citizen.

    Maybe my installer is simply lying to me, but it doesn't seem so.

    Anyway thank you everyone.
  • drhvacdrhvac Member Posts: 189
    Its not the state

    I can't believe I'm saying that, because this state is always trying to rob us. Its your contractor. No legitimate hvac contractor has never heard of manual j. It sounds like the guy you used was a plumber or electrician that decided one day to put AC on the side of his truck, and is very inexperienced in the field. That could be done in this state, because we are the only trade besides builders that doesn't need a license. The only thing that is required is a state registration that just confirms the contractor is insured, there is no testing involved to check te contractors knowledge. Get after the contractor to do the manual J for you, if he really doesn't know how to do it, tell him to learn it. If he still gives you a hard time, go to the township code enforcement, maybe they could help you. If the contractor didn't get permits, then they could really help you. Good luck.
  • Empire_2Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343
    I get a chuckle........

    Remodeling, Heating and Air Conditioning.????  I would love to remodel my own house and others, but I am so busy with HVAC, keeping up to date on new technology, designing systems, service repair, schooling, performing load calc, Maintaining equipment etc...  Mr. Smith, after I change out your A/C system I can clean out your gutters and also paint your living room if I have time....

         Just sounds weird to me.....



    Mike T.
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