Gorton valve spewing water in mom's old house

stuyguy

The boiler (1995 Weil-McLain 175K BTU, EG-50-SPDN) in my mom’s house (built in 1925 in NYC) heated the entire two-family house (2000 sq ft plus full basement) until earlier this year. A Laars Minitherm (75K BTU) and baseboards were installed to heat the 2nd floor so that tenants would be responsible for their own heat. The Laars seems to work fine. The 1st floor of the house has the original cast-iron radiators and is a 2-pipe system (none of the radiators has a relief valve). A Gorton D valve on a return pipe in the basement at the front of the house (boiler is at rear) now spews about 1 cup of cool water about 10 minutes after the boiler fires up, after having emitted air for most of the 10-minute period. The valve has never spewed water before, although these Gortons were installed to replace older valves when the Laars was installed. There are only two equalizing valves in the system; the other Gorton D is on a return pipe by the boiler and doesn’t seem to emit steam or water. A plumber elevated the spewing valve (it’s now about 6.5 ft above the floor just below the ceiling), cleaned/drained the boiler, and examined one of the check valves in the return at floor level. He wasn’t sure what else to do to solve the spewing. He wondered if the Weil was now too large considering that it’s only heating the 1st floor now (all pipes running through 1st floor to 2nd floor were also removed during renovation). Is the Gorton D undersized? When the Gortons were installed, a bushing was installed below the valve to attach it to the larger opening in the return pipe—is this OK? My house in Colorado has a forced hot air furnace so I’m learning about boilers slowly. Any ideas as to what’s causing the spewing? Is this a safety issue? (I've attached a pic of the spewing Gorton)

Rod

Piping

Hi- Attached is your picture where I labeled the two pipes in your picture "X" (which seems to be the steam main) and "Y" (which seem to be the return)  Is this correct?  Is this the only main and return?  Could you trace both of these pipes back to the boiler and give us photos of anything that is attached to the two pipes along the way?  Maybe a picture of where the return piping connected to the boiler. You can take the pictures standing farther back from the boiler as what we need to see is the piping and where it leads. If we need detail we can blow up the picture.

At what pressure does the boiler operate?   Residential steam systems operate at under a maximum of 2 PSI and most 2 pipe systems much lower than that.

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

spewing vent

that vent needs protection from the water hammered slugs of water which shoot up the vertical return. a few elbows will slow the water down.

most likely, the preexisting boiler is now too large, and may need replacement with one whose size matches the total of radiation. there may be a faint chance that the w-m boiler could be down-fired.

the pressure of the system may have also been modified so that the pressuretrol allows the system to rise above 1.5 psi.

unfortunately, your mother has gone from a system where her tenants paid a portion of the fuel cost to a new situation where she may now have to pay for the installation of 2 new boilers. 

it's a pity that the installer of the laars did not warn her of this possibility

stuyguy

Follow up and thanks

Yes, X and Y pipes are correctly labelled. These are the principal main and return (about 35 ft from X and Y to boiler), serving 4 radiators. There's a separate, shorter main and return right near the boiler that serves just 1 radiator. The pressuretrol is set as follows: cut in, 0.5-1; cut off, 2.5. (By cut off, I mean to say the max PSI the gauge hits before the boiler turns off--don't know if my terminology is correct).



The plumber dropped by and replaced the spewing Gorton with a Maid-O-Mist No. 67 auto vent. This thing has a cap on it like the valve-stem cap on tires. I don't see how water can spew out of it, but can steam vent from it?



I've attached several photos. From the stairs as seen in one of the photos, the return travels back to the boiler along the floor for about 30 ft. It's not a straight shot; there are several elbows along the way to the boiler.

stuyguy

Thanks

Thanks for the reply. See my previous reply for some feedback and photos. I asked the plumber yesterday about downfiring the boiler and he didn't think that was possible. The 2nd floor wasn't previously rented out to tenants; an uncle lived there for free. After he passed, we thought it best to add a separate heating system for the 2nd floor as there's just one thermostat in the house and it's on the 1st floor. My mom sets it for her comfort on the 1st floor and typically it's chilly on the 2nd floor. Perhaps we could have done something differently but too late for that.

nicholas bonham-carter

main vents

i don't recognize the new main vents installed by the plumber, but i don't think they are as big as the previous one, which was a gorton #1 or #2.

as the main vents do all the work of letting the air out without burning extra fuel to force it out, it would be better to change those out for the gorton #2.

here is a link to the supplier's website in case your plumber doesn't know where to find them:

http://www.pexsupply.com/Gorton-G2-Gorton-No-2-Straight-Air-Eliminator-3524000-p

i would also advise keeping the pressure as low as possible on this boiler as it will make a more comfortable surface temperature on the radiators themselves. my system does most of its work at 4 ounces, but plenty of venting is required.--nbc

stuyguy

Follow up and thanks

The Maid-O-Mist replaced a Gorton D. The vent nearer the boiler is also a Gorton D. I think there's sufficient clearance for the Gorton #2--thanks for the link. I'll see if a local plumbing supply place has any.



I checked the pressuretrol again and cut in is 0.5, diff inside the box is 1, and so cut out should be 1.5 although PSI gauge reaches 2-2.5. Are these settings low enough?

stuyguy

Naturally

Boiler fired up. Maid-O-Mist valve din't spew water but the Gorton D by the boiler sure did.

Rod

Backed up Condensate?

Hi- Okay I got a little confused there when I saw the pictures of the different vent.

I was able to trace your wet return line to the stairs in the picture, but need to trace it to the Hartford loop.



Questions:

1. Does the estimated Boiler water level look correct? (see attached pictures)

2. Is there a main vent between the "End of the Steam Main" and the last radiator lateral before the end of the main? There should be a main vent on this line.

3. The one way valve isn't necessary.

4. Has the Wet Return pipe between the one way valve and the Hartford Loop  been cleaned lately? This is the lowest pipe in the system and consequently collects all the dirt and crud from the system. If it was even partially plugged up this would slow down the return of condensate to the boiler and water would back up to the vent level.

5. It would also help if you could lower the boiler pressure too.

- Rod

stuyguy

Answers

1. The level looks good at the glass vial on the boiler. It's from 1 to 3 inches above base of tube, and never more than half way up. Doesn't fluctuate wildly when boiler is running.

2. Nope--no vents on that pipe. Only the two vents I've mentioned. I'll ask plumber about this.

3. OK. There's another by the boiler.

4. Yesterday, the plumber attached a hose to the spigot below the Hartford loop and drained some water out. But that line hasn't EVER been thoroughly cleaned to my knowledge. Certainly hasn't since my father died 15 years ago. Does a plumber do this work or a sewer guy?

5. The PSI gauge now shuts off the boiler when it reads 2.0. Is that low enough?

Thanks for the feedback--greatly appreciated

Rod

2 Pipe Steam problems.

Hi - Question #1 referred to the "estimated water line" I drew in a dotted blue line on the wall above the one way valve in the picture showing the ends of the steam man and the return as they drop down to the Wet Return. Comparing the high of this dotted blue line to the height of the water line on the boiler glass does the level look approximately the same?  It's very important that the pipe dropping down from the Steam Main and the Return Main don't join together until they are under water (below the boiler's water level)



Between the one way valve below on the mentioned above and the Hartford Loop on the boiler, where is the second vent and other one way valve located? Could you take a picture of these? Take it farther back so we can see the piping attached to them. We can always blow up the pictures if we need more detail.



Pressure- Lower equals better, If you go lower the system will work better. See thids link:  http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/97/Problems-that-plague-TWO-PIPE-steam-heating-systems/108/The-main-vents-squirt-water

Pressuretrols have their limitations and may not operate well at lower pressures. To go lower you may need a vaportstat. A lot of people operate their two pipe systems on ounces of pressure.  On a 2 pipe steam system running at 2 PSI, you need a 60 inch "A" Dimension and besides the possibility of a partially clogged wet return I'm wondering if this might not be a problem. 

See the attached link and scroll down to 2 pipe steam systems.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/321/Steam-Heating-Basics/128/A-Steam-Heating-Primer

If you find your wet return is really plugged up it is sometimes much easier and less costly to just cut out the old pipe and replace it with a new one. Black pipe is cheap. Labor is expensive.

- Rod

stuyguy

Thanks

The Steam Main and Return Main join at about 10-11 inches above floor. Your "estimated water line" is about 18-19 inches above floor. The water in the glass vial on the boiler is about 26 inches above floor.



There seem to be two check valves along the return below the Loop. One is on each side of where the main return joins together with a smaller return serving one radiator. I can't take a single photo showing both the 2nd Groton valve and the Loop because of nearby walls limting how much I can back up



Later today, the plumber is supposed to lower the pressure on the boiler to 1 and install another Maid-O-Mist



Very informative links--thanks.

Big-Al_2

Hot Water Vent

The Maid-O-Mist #67 vent is an air eliminator valve for a hot water system.  It won't work at all with steam.  If the guy who installed it doesn't understand the difference, you'd better find a qualified steam guy pronto.  Most plumbers don't understand steam heat at all.

stuyguy

Thanks

I'll replace it with a Gorton 1 or 2 pronto

stuyguy

Wiring question

When the boiler cuts out, the components wired in series (low-water cut off, automatic feed, and something under the flue (smoke detector?)) lose power. Is this right or should each component have power all the time?

Dave in QCA

Think about what would happen

Whoa....   don't even think about rewiring your boiler!  It could have disatrous results!



I want you to stop and think about your question and the scenario that would develop if it was wired differently.  I will make a series (no pun intended) of points for you to consider.

Your boiler's control devices are all wired in series.

The control devices are essentially switches that will open the circuit (turn off the current) if they sense a condition that indicates the boiler should not be firing, such as low water, high pressure, plugged flue, etc.

Being essentiall a switch, the control devices do not need to have power continuously supplied to them.  They don't consume or use power.

You are suggesting that instead of being wired in series, the control devices should be wired in parallel.  What would this do??   Well.. if they were all wired in parallel, the boiler would continue to fire as long as the thermostat was calling for heat and any single control device was in the closed (on) position.  For the control devices to shut off the boiler, they would all have to have their contacts open.  That imeans, you would have to have low water, high pressure, and a plugged flue, all at the same time in order for those devices to shut off the boiler.

Series wiring... any device in the open (off) position will interrupt the current.

Parallel wiring.... and device in the closed (on) position will allow the current to flow.



I hope this clears up the picture for you.  Series wiring is exactly what it should be.  Don't try to fix it.  It ain't broke!

stuyguy

Thanks

I wasn't sure. Rewiring was my plumber's suggestion--time to get a new plumber. I'm not sure if this is OK to ask but can anyone recommend a good steam guy in Astoria, NY?

Rod

That's Scarey!

Yikes!! That's really, really scarey!!! Keep that guy well away from the boiler wiring!!!!

 Dave gave you a great explanation of how and why the boiler's safety devices are wired that way.  One would not even want to contemplate the disastrous possibilities that could  result from disabling all the boiler's safety devices



As for steam pros, you might want to check the "Find a Contractor " section at the top of this page. Scroll down past the zip code section (it's not reliable)  to the "States" section. There are some good steam guys listed there.

- Rod