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noisy circulator

AlexS
AlexS Member Posts: 69
in THE MAIN WALL
I have a Taco 3 speed 00R-IFC on the primary side of my vitodens 100 setup and it has a ridiculous hum.  Speed change doesnt make a difference, I even removed the check inside and that didnt help.   I have a single speed 00R on the system side and it's quiet.



Is there a different pump that is known to be quieter with the same curve?  I have a new 007 sitting around from another job, but it's not as strong as the 00R on speed 2... Should I give it a try, or would it damage the boiler?  I have a P/S setup with a taco LLH.

Comments

  • AlexS
    AlexS Member Posts: 69
    .......

    I tried out the 007-F5 this morning which eliminated the hum, but it's certainly not a quiet circulator.  I've been in boiler rooms in customers homes where I couldnt even tell their 007 was running.



    I ran the 3speed 00R just in my hand for a couple seconds and it's quiet as can be. Only when connected in the system and flowing water does it make such an annoying hum.



    I have everything clamped to Kindorf which is screwed to a bearing wall in my basement.  I know the sound is traveling through the framing.  I have 1" thick rubber mat left over from a soundproofing project, would that help much if placed between Kindorf and the wall?  It can hold a screw so I would only screw the kindorf to the rubber, and not all the way through to the framing.
  • bob_46
    bob_46 Member Posts: 813
    Hummm

    Maybe it is not the pump making the hum. It might be velocity noise. Can you restrict the flow or slow it down to see if the noise goes away?

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  • AlexS
    AlexS Member Posts: 69
    tried that...

    I have isolation valves on both ends of the pump... doesnt help,  except to create a new velocity noise as the water rushes through the partially closed ball valve.



    It even whines when the pump is on low speed. 



    The 007 that's in there now doesnt have that whine at all, but it just sounds like a loud pump...  I've never actually lived with a hydronic system before, so I hope Im just not being too picky.  I dont really think so though, because I've worked in countless boiler rooms and I know they can be near silent.



    Does anyone know if using an 007 will hurt the boiler?  I get the impression these modcon heat exchangers have a higher head pressure.  So far this morning, it seems to be performing about the same as the 00R was.
  • Gordan
    Gordan Member Posts: 891
    Orientation?

    Make sure that the axis of rotation is horizontal.



    For what it's worth, I have a 007-F5 and it's noisy. I also have a Grundfos UPS15-58 (3-speed) and a Grundfos Alpha (different beast entirely) and they're both silent.
  • AlexS
    AlexS Member Posts: 69
    explain please...

    Axis of rotation?



     The pump is mounted vertically, pumping downward to the boiler.  Veissmann wants the boiler pump on the return. I googled axis of rotation for circulators and didnt get an answer...
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    edited October 2011
    Wrong Pump

    That 007 is not the right pump. It's a flat curve pump and you will have issues with not moving enough gpm thru the boiler to get the btu's your going to need. The proper boiler pumps for a Vitodenss 100 are either a Taco 00R or Grundfoss UPS15-58. Since these pumps are sized based on a 40 degree delta-t across the boiler your being fooled right now. You can only move about 4gpm with that 007. When you need btu's at 15 degrees or less you may not be able to make enough gpm with that 007 to get the btu's your going to need to overcome the heat loss. You will however see the recovery of the DHW tank drop.



    Remember:

    gpm = btuh divided by (delta-t x 500)



    btuh = gpm x (delta-t x 500)

    80,000 = 4gpm x 20,000



    See page 9 for pressure drop at gpm's and page 15 max flow rate chart. I've also attached the pump curves for both the 00R Series and 003-008 Series.

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  • AlexS
    AlexS Member Posts: 69
    Thanks Chris,

    I've been looking at that documentation for the past few days, and I figured the 007 wasnt going to work... I had it in the trailer, so I figured I would just see what it does. 



    Why would these circs sing so much though? 



    The LLH is mounted high, with both primary and secondary circs pumping down 12" or so to horizontal 1" piping.  The system side is a 00R that's reasonably quiet...  The boiler side is the 3 speed 00R that was really singing.  When I first swapped in the 007, it was a little noisy, but the sound didnt resonate through the pipes.  A few hours of run time, and it's a bit loud as well.



    Is pumping down an issue?  Did I not meet some minimum pipe length? The fill valve meets the expansion tank below all the piping, and a 1/2" line ties into the boiler return 6 inches before the circ...  Would that make any difference?  Want a picture?
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Please Post

    Some pics, that boiler pump should not be pumping down it should be orientated so that you are pumping thru the boiler. Make sure the arrow on the pump is pointing to the boiler.

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  • AlexS
    AlexS Member Posts: 69
    pumping...

    Yes, it's pumping towards the boiler.  The pump is mounted on a vertical pipe and the flow is down.



    The pump on the right is the boiler pump, pumping towards the boiler.  Pump on the left is system, and it's pumping away from the LLH.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Please

    post another pic so we can see the piping under the boiler.

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  • AlexS
    AlexS Member Posts: 69
    BWR on the right...

    Here ya go... Boiler return piped according to the installation manual. All 1" copper.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Did You

    Cut the piping on the LLH?

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  • AlexS
    AlexS Member Posts: 69
    nope..

    no cutting... just added a coupling to extend those upper legs...
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Great

    Was tough to see from the pic. Everthing is piped correctly. How many 1lbs are you running the system at? We like to see about 15lbs. You may just have a noisy circ.

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  • AlexS
    AlexS Member Posts: 69
    I started at 15...

    and I noticed I wasnt getting a decent flow to the 2nd floor zone... Temp gauges on the manifolds were still cold up there.  When I increased the pressure to 20lbs, everything worked fine.  It's 3/8 pex in Uponor joisttrak up there with about 180-200ft loop lengths.



    I dropped the pressure in the system back to 15 yesterday to see if it had any effect on circulator noise, and it did nothing.



    Just a noisy circulator?  What's the chance the 00R and the 007 are both loud?  And I swear that 007 is louder today than it was yesterday... grrrrr....
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Air

    You sure all the air is out of the boiler side?

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  • AlexS
    AlexS Member Posts: 69
    yeah...

    it's definitely not air...  there's only about 8ft of pipe on the primary side, it bleeds out pretty easy.  Even when I swap circs, I open the top valve first, and you can hear the bubble purge through the LLH's vent.



    Im about ready to abandon Taco and head over to Blackman for a Grundfos pump...



    Just for fun, can I swap the 3speed to the system side and use the (quiet) single speed 00R to the primary permanently?  I might give it a whirl to see if it'll run quiet.  If the single speed is noisy on the primary side as well, I think I can assume I have another issue.
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