PLEASE HELP --- WAS THIS PIPING DONE CORRECT

BXNYC

Hi All,

  Can anyone please verify that this installed was done correctly. 

From what I have seen from other pics I think that the pipe "A" in BOILER_A pic should have continued from the header, label "B".  From what I have read the job of pipe "A" is to return wet steam to the return line.



And in pic BOILER_B, I am questioning why the installer left this piece of pipe in place when it appears to do nothing. It should have been removed, right?



I'm already upset with installer because I have a leak on one of the unions (see rusted colored union on header), which I was going to let slide.

But if this piping is wrong I'm definitely hauling him to small claims.



Please share your comments.



 

JStar

RE

Doesn't look up to manufacturer's specs. That side pipe might be used for skimming. You'd have to ask the installer. Do you have the installation manual or a boiler model number?

BXNYC

It's a Burham Independence.

This pic most be the model number.

Steamhead

What happens to pipe B?

Is it just capped? If so, that's wrong. Pipe A should connect there.

BXNYC

Yep just capped.

I had a feeling about that.  Thanks.

Rod

Boiler Piping

Hi- Here's the installation manual if you don't have a copy

http://www.usboiler.net/products/boilers/independence/assets/manual-ind.pdf

Take a look at page 17 as this gives the instructions as to how you boiler needs to be piped. It's a bit more than just hooking up "X" to "Y". The installer should have followed the installation instructions.

- Rod

JohnNY

???

I especially like the position of that pressuretrol in the first pic.

icesailor

Correct:

Like I have said, "It's amazing how much money you can save by doing it wrong the first time".  That said, those of us who know how to do it right and never get the jobs to do it right the first time (because we cost too much money), get to cast our jaundiced eyes on piping Picasso's like this one.

Those of us who give a rodents rosy red rectum would seldom, if ever, have a leak on out piping and if we did, would break down doors to get back to fix it before some other Professional might see it and spread the word about our  development of a serious case of hackitis. Which is bad for a reputation.

Save your money and emotional energy and forget about small claims court. Your time and money will be better spent by finding someone who knows steam and how to read the manufacturers explicit instructions on how to pipe steam boilers. It isn't rocket science. I piped up a few steam boilers years ago when I was an employee. I've been in business for over 35 years. I've never installed a replacement steam boiler in that time. I recently took on an account with two big steam boilers. All piped wrong. Though, they work "OK". But they have "Issues". The first thing I show the owners is the manufacturers recommended piping diagrams. If the term "In the ball park" applies to a Baseball Park, these boilers were installed and piped on a Football Field. But they work. Mostly.

I would suggest that if you find someone to "look" at your piping with the idea of them correcting the deficiencies, you have a copy of the original manufacturers install and piping manual laying around. If the prospective tradesman doesn't pick up that manual and show you the diagrams and how the new piping is wrong and how they will correct it, you go to the next one on the list. The only exception would be if they whipped out a paper and pencil and started to draw you an example of how it should have been and how they would fix it. They know what they are doing. That's who you need. Don't get cheap. We who know what we are doing, may not be cheap. But we are in the end when we don't need to do it over. Or another of my favorite sayings" "There's never enough time to do it right, but there's always time for someone else to do it over."  When they say, "Call Someone Else:, they mean, "Call Us."

BobC

It always amazes me . . .

how there is never enough time or money to do it right but they always find money when it doesn't work and have to do it over.



I know what you mean about finding a pro to fix that mess but someone should make that installers rosy red smart for that piping job so he's not so quick to do it to his next customer.



Homeowners have to realize there is a reason why someone comes up with a really low bid. Good materials and workmanship cost money but they usually pay off in the long run.



Bob

BXNYC

@icesailor and @BobC this was done by a "Professional"

That is what is so dissapointing about this.  This is a "company" that has been around.  Am I allowed to call them out here?  I don't think Heating Help would be happy, but this is the job this particular company did.  



I was way over my head when I had this boiler installed; gullible enough to think that the "professional" would do the right thing.



Thanks to those for their inputs.

BXNYC

@BobC, your assumption is way off

Your assumption might apply to other cases but not this one, sorry to burst your bubble buddy.  This wasn't done by joe from down the block.  What you see in does pic's is what a professional company did.  They were paid very well.

BXNYC

Thanks

for the pdf info.

icesailor

Embarassed:

Any reputable company that did an install like that may be on a downward spiral.

It's not that they didn't do a good job of threading pipe, it's where they put the pipe that is the problem. And the leaking union is unforgivable.

I'm resolving "issues" with a steam boiler that was installed "by others". The manufacturer of the boiler (according to the owner) won't even talk to them about the problems.

And this was planned by a Professional Engineer, stamped and signed. It has a page of "cookie cutter drawings" from some CAD program on how to pipe the system. There isn't ONE drawing that comes close to meeting the boiler manufacturers sketches and recommendations. It can happen to anyone.

In MY opinion, you waste energy by dealing with the installer, no matter what. If they did something like that, they obviously don't know what they are doing. And they would never want their name plastered or associated with that disaster.

It's not difficult to fix. Just fix it.

That's how I see it.

Or there's more to the story.

BobC

Did not intend to offend

I was not trying to lay the blame at your doorstep, and if my post came across like that i apologize.



The company that installed this did not follow the manual pure and simple. They may have done that just to save time and material or they just don't understand steam systems.



The only protection a homeowner can have is to get something in writing that the boiler will be installed per the manufacturers recommendations. If not it often comes down to a pissing contest when things like this happen and that gets nothing fixed.



Bob

Joe V_2

i wouldnt call them out

but I would call them back and hand them the manual. if they refuse to make good on this, you have a legal course of action.

KnaveP

But that leaves them to steam other customers

Not calling them out is a bad idea. I will post a picture of an install that have the same fingerprints. And they are advertised here on Find a contractor. Here we have a dishonest person who hides in a group of professionals. Of course the unsuspecting will fall prey to his ploy.  Is letting this person to continue to steal hard earned money from consumers the right, ethical thing to do? 

crash2009

While we are at it

You should have the entire boiler rotated 1/4 turn counterclockwise.  How are you supposed to see the sight glass and pressure gauges?  How is the next repairman going to clean the pigtail or maintain the low water cutoff.  Chances are these maintenences will never be done because you can't get to them.  Sorry to give you more bad news, but that's the way I see it.

KnaveP

Plumber needs to be removedf from "Find a Contractor"

Look at the pictures and tell me if it is not the same fingerprints. If BXNYC can post pictures of the Hartford loop, I am sure you will find that it is piped incorrectly as well. The picture with the tape measure shows how much off the installer is with the Hartford loop. Installation asks for 26 5/8 inches from floor ( boiler is Burnham IN6) and it was installed at 21inches. From Beth " The house in

Queens we will not be changing, we have been installing boilers with

this type of header and have never had a problem even with inspections." Why protect this plumber?

crash2009

Now I see whats going on

I posted to a cry for help without checking the date.  Good luck on your mission.  Maybe you could contact BX directly and confirm your suspicions.  Just click on his name and you can send him an e-mail. 

Long Beach Ed

Pipe

What's with that capped pipe the guy sticks out of the side of his risers?  What's that all about?

KnaveP

IT IS A SKIM PORT!!!

That capped piped, my friends, is Mr. Ge. STU.  skim port. He install the skim port on the header, if you can call that a header. Additionally he does not do drop headers because "drop headers are used for low ceilings" (he called around for that bit of information). And this guy is a NYC licensed master plumber who has been plying his trade for 35 years.

KnaveP

IT IS A SKIM PORT!!!

That capped pipe, my friends, is Mr. Ge. STU.  skim port. He install the skim port on the header, if you can call that a header. Additionally he does not do drop headers because "drop headers are used for low ceilings" (he called around for that bit of information). And this guy is a NYC licensed master plumber who has been plying his trade for 35 years.

FJL

Who?

We should know who this is if this contractor is recommended by this site.

Charlie from wmass

Drop Headers are for low ceilings.

The skim port I feel is not a good idea as the oils will cling to the top of the boiler inside unless a cleaning product is used, like Squick. Headers of proper size and height do not need to be drop headers. I use Drop headers on an as needed basis not as a blanket policy. The question I have for the angry mob forming with the pitchforks is " How is the boiler running?" Does it surge, bang, short cycle, or give any other issues? If the answer is yes then lets find an answer, if the answer is no then lets move on to real heating problems.

Charlie from wmass

As for the leaking union

call him up and have him fix it. Even I have a leak once in awhile. I go back, take it apart and reset it with a little pipe dope. Not a small claim issue here, just a call back.

BXNYC

Are you being apologetic for this person's work?

There is no "angry mob forming with the pitchforks" here.  These are legit questions being asked about two (and counting I guess) installations, made by one of your peers.

Why in the world would you install a boiler NOT based on the manufacturer's installation recommendations?

BTW, the boiler is running.  But the banging drives me crazy.  I don't think you would be a happy person if I came to your house and use a hammer to bang on your pipes at 3 AM.  And I am not so sure that the boiler it's operating at its peak performance.  There is a reason why the manufacturer makes installation recommendations.

 

Charlie maybe you should consider installing drop headers more often as I have read, in this forum of course, that it helps with the "dry steam" which does wonders on a system.  Or have I misread it?

BXNYC

The secretary from hell....

"Not a small claim issue here"...Are you kidding me?  So if a customer calls you and asks you to come in and fix a leaking union that you installed, and you give them the runaround (or your behind to kiss, like the lady that answer their phone), of course this is small claims.

Or what do you suggest?

BTW, the union is leaking because, at the union, the pipes are not straight; one of pipe comes at a slight angle, but they managed to tighten the union.  So it leaks when they boiler runs.

Jean-David Beyer

Why in the world would you install a boiler NOT based on the manufacturer's installation recommendations?

How would some people know they were not following the manufacturer's recommendations when they are proud of the fact that they never read the installatioin manuals?

KnaveP

Who?

NYC Master plumber #997.  I won't list the name because he may have paid for the privilege to advertise on this site. 

Charlie from wmass

You did not say you had gotten the run around.

If the man is licensed and insured Then he needs contacted directly. Some secretaries do more than they should. If the man advertises here I would be surprised if he does not stand behind his work. and posting his license number is the same as posting his name. Has he been paid in full for his installation?

Charlie from wmass

If properly sized for the boiler

drop headers are not needed. I have a "few" boilers I have installed without drop headers that do not bang or hammer. So you do have banging now maybe we can find the source. As for reading installation manual, I read them for boilers I do not even install. Where do you hear the banging and is it at the start, middle , or end of the heating cycle?