Leaking Burnham Boier

Dean_7

I have a Burnham Model IN4PVNI-M2 boiler which was installed 8 years ago (one pipe steam system). This boiler has been meticulously maintained over the years and until now has been trouble free. It now has developed a leak at the top of one section (4 total) of the heat exchanger. The boiler is piped properly and has never used much make up water ever. Also our water is fairly beneign and mostly from Lake Michigan. Talking to Burnham's customer service was an interesting experience. I recieved what is the apparently standard speech from a customer service supervisor named George about how chlorides in the water including road salt leaching into the ground water are responsible. The last one is interesting because ground water around here is monitored for just such contamination. In other words Burnham is not going to do anything about the boiler. The question is exactly how common is this both the leaking boiler after a relatively short time and the poor customer service?

Steamhead

Not just Burnham

here are some links to ones we've run into recently:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/133959/Slightly-Squished-G-8-Installation-or-a-Holiday-Present-for-the-house



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/134050/New-Year-New-Boiler



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/135685/Another-rotted-out-atmospheric-steamer-replaced



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/138040/Still-another-rotted-out-atmospheric-gas-steamer

nicholas bonham-carter

Leak prevention

Maybe if you had been able to give an exact water consumption figure to the customer service rep, he would have been more responsive. This shows that metered make-up water systems should be standard on all steam boilers.

Are there any cleaning products/water-softener salts stored in the boiler room?

Perhaps also a culprit would be high pressure producing more carbonic acid in the returns.

Maybe reverse osmosis could purify the make-up water before it enters the boiler.--nbc

Dean_7

Leaking boiler

Numerous photos were taken by the field representative when he inspected the boiler.. He thought the system was set up extremely well and thought that the boiler section shouldn't have deteriorated. He also thought Burnham would cover it. It was the Burnham home office representative that was less than helpful. This system was installed, set up and has been operated with the best practices possible for a one pipe steam system. Much of the information was obtained from this web site from Steamhead and Mad Dog who took the time to answer my questions and from Dan's books especially The Lost Art of Steam Heating (you get interesting looks from service people when they see that book sitting next to the boiler). The system is vented properly, uses a vaporstat and runs on 8oz of pressure. The water line is stable and the site glass clear. Make up water is minimal and until last spring the automatic water feed rarely if ever operated. Because of the salt companies here our ground water is monitored for contamination. There is nothing near the boiler to cause corrosion and the basement is dry and dehumidified.

ChrisJ

They claim

The modern boilers are slimmed down and made thin in order to be more efficient and save energy.  Are we saving anything by spending $5K+ every 5-10 years on a new boiler!?!



My neighbor has a 60+ year old converted coal boiler and he adds tons of water, she keeps on going!





I've seen people say they do not recommend using additives in steam boilers.  If memory serves this was because they raise the boiling point and waste energy.  Even so, do they reduce corrosion and rusting as they claim?

Dave in QCA

Some Comparisons

Here are some interesting comparisons of similar sized boilers and their corresponding water content.  It seems that there is quite a difference.....



Burnham IN-12    Input = 385     Water content for steam  17.7 gal   Thermal effic= 79.5

Peerless 64-08    Input = 318     Water content-steam 17 gal.    Thermal effic=79.4

WeilMclain LGB-4  Input = 400   Water content-steam 23.2 gal   Thermal effic=78

WeilMclain 380  Input = 346   Water content-steam 27.5 gal.  Thermal effic=80.2 (firing nat gas)

WeilMclain 480 Input = 491   Water content-steam 36 gal.  Thermal effic=80.7(firing nat gas)

Burnham V-903 Input= 447   Water content-steam 44.5 gal.  Thermal effic=80.0 (firing nat gas)



I am inclined to believe that it is not necessary to have low water content in order to have high efficiency.  It seems that there may be a motive on the part of the manufacturer to reduce the amount of cast iron used and therefor be able to keep the cost low and profits high.  Note that the WM 380 has a lower firing rate than the IN-12, yet it has almost double the water content and is more efficient at the same time.  Of course... it is a wet base boiler.

Dean_7

Cast iron

Interesting point Dave. This is almost what the Burnham Customer Service representative said on the phone. Less cast iron less cost. The exact quote was "No one would pay 20,000 dollars for a boiler." However the wet base designs do appear to be more durable from what I've been reading. Obviously the manufactures know there is a problem so why won't they admit it, fix the boilers that fail, and keep their customers. In the auto industry the cars that sell are the ones with the highest relialilty, least number of problems, and best customer service. One of the reasons Apple is one of the most valuable companies in the world is not only their products but their customer service. What does it take for other companies to learn this?

ChrisJ

I find that hard to believe

It wouldn't cost 10X the money to cast an iron block thicker.  I could see a $2800 boiler costing $3000-3500 with a much thicker, larger block but by no means $20,000.  They have been making cast iron blocks for hundreds of years, its by no means difficult or expensive.

BobC

damn bean counter

I agree with Chris, this is what happens when the bean counters take charge of a company. I think a lot of these premature boiler failures happened after they slimmed down the castings AND got them made in China at the same time. I've played that game and you have no control over quality when your dealing with someone 7 - 8,000 miles away over the phone in a different language. This was a case of the accounting dept. seizing control of the company and trying to squeeze out more profit at any cost.



One problem we have with the steam boiler industry is that it is shrinking and just doesn't get much attention at the corporate level. I suspect the number of steam boiler sold is less than 5% of all boilers, things are going to get worse as time goes on. Then we have the threat of someone in Washington putting regulations in effect that legislate steam systems out of existence because they don't understand system efficiency.



Bob

ChrisJ

China

Before buying my EG-45 I spoke with a WM sales person who assured me the block was made in the USA.  I have to assume its true.



I also thought all Burnham blocks were made in the US?



I'm surprised no one has responded to my question regarding additives to reduce corrosion \ rusting?

Steamhead

Burnham does make their blocks in America

Zanesville, Ohio to be exact, unless something has changed that I don't know about.



I don't recommend additives in steam boilers unless the pH of the water supply is way off, or there's some other issue with it. Very often they do more harm than good.

BobC

Castings.

I thought Burnham was importing some castings from China 15-20 years ago, but I may have been mislead. I know a lot of tool manufacturers got burned when they initially got castings over there, it was all ironed out but it took at least a year and pissed off a lot of customers along the way.



I don't think the Chinese have taken to heart Demmings teachings on the importance of quality control the way the Japanese did -



       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming



Bob

Dean_7

Castings

This is what irritates me about this whole situation. There used to be a local foundry here Manistee Iron Works that for a long time was part of XLO Michigan Tool. They made castings for machine tools for the automotive industry among others, made parts for the war effort during WWII and castings for Huey helocopters during the Vietnam era. They shut down in the 1980's after being in business for around 100 years. My father worked for them for 35 years and I worked there for 6 summers while going to college in the 1970's. I know more about cast iron than I ever wanted to. That's why the Burnham Representative answers are nothing but garbage to tell people who don't know better. Making quality cast iron castings is NOT that hard.

Mark N

IN-4

Dean



Sorry to hear about your boiler. Boilers should last much longer than 8 years. I had a Burnham IN-4 installed 3 years ago. The previous boiler lasted 75 years. Burnham has placed very restrictive warnings about make-up water for the Independence boiler. According to the manual it is 1 gallon a year for the IN-4. What type of LWCO do you have? Mine came with the probe type. If yours has the float type, the weekly blowdowns add quite a bit of water. Is it possible to get your water tested? If the water test good maybe Burnham will reconsider..

gerry gill

i wonder why companies shoot themselves in the foot..

if i were the boiler company i would just give you a new block..heck i'd be begging you to take the damn thing..you can't buy the kind of good advertising that could and would create..but you sure can ruin the efforts of the marketing department by trying to get out of a warranty issue..the company should say, this isn't a warranty issue its a marketing opportunity..as we used to say in the navy- one awe s**t wipes out a hundred at a boys..shame cause i really like Burnham boilers..but we also have a great rep here in Cleveland..makes you wonder what the ceo would say..

Dean_7

low water cutoff

The boiler has a McDonnel-Miller probe type LWCO with an automatic water feed. As i said the water feed has never operated until last spring. I check the water level once a week and until last spring have never had to add make up water. Too much makeup water isn't the problem. Also I would like to thank all the people who have taken the time to reply to this post. 

Steamhead

Wow

if that's true, there must be something else going on there. Maybe you should go with a wet-base/power-burner unit for the next one. By all means put a Hydrolevel VXT feeder on it- this unit has a counter that keeps track of water intake.



BTW, are you the same Dean who bought a partly finished house and put a steam system in it?

dean_20

wow reply

Steamhead,

The hydrolevel is the only device I never got around to installing. Even though I wanted to. No I,m not the one who bought the unfinished house and installed the steam system. .That  was a friend of mine and I encouraged her to post the story. Thanks.

dean_20

wow reply 2

The wet base  boiler would have be my choice but I have no chimney. Thus the choice for the Independence boiler. Several years ago I posted the pictures how badly the chimney had deteriorated after the old boiler had been converted to gas and the chimney had been lined with ordinary galvanized sheet metal. So the question is can the wet base boiler be vented out the side of the house?

Steamhead

Sure you can

by using a power venter. Tjernlund and Field are the two biggest suppliers of these.

Dean_7

Power Venter

Thanks. I sense a plan coming together here.