First house with steam heat, two questions

CoreyT

Hi All, I just my first home. It was built in 1925 and has steam heat. My first question is just about thermostats. I don't see a whole lot of updated info on thermostats for steam heat. I read the article that recommends the Honeywell TH6110, but when I look that up it looks like they are not made anymore. Is there an updated version that is compatible, or a new recommendation?



My second question is about the air vents on each radiator. When my boiler kicks on for heating our hot water, some of our air vents will hiss a couple of times before the boiler stops. Is that normal, or do I need to look into something?



I can get any info to help answer either of those questions, just let me know what info helps.



Thanks

Hap_Hazzard

Welcome

The hissing just means the steam has begun to rise through the pipes and is starting to push air out of the radiators. The downside is that you're spending money to heat your house when you don't necessarily need it. I'm not sure to what extent this is normal, but I'd think it would tend to increase if the heat exchange between the boiler water and the potable water is less efficient: the boiler needs to get hotter to achieve the same hot water temperature. Other than thoroughly cleaning (flushing and skimming) the boiler or replacing the coil I'm not sure that there's anything you can do about it, but I don't have any direct experience with these things; I've just read about them here.



There was a recent thread about thermostats. You might want to search for it. About all I know is that you need the right voltage (24 or 110) for your system and you need to put it in a place where it will get good air circulation and away from any appliances that give off heat.

Rod

Welcome to the Wall!

Hi Corey-

   Welcome to the Wonder World of steam heating!

Thermostats-  What make model thermostat do you have now and why do you want to replace it?   When looking for a new thermostat for steam you need to keep a couple of things in mind. The first is that for steam, a thermostat needs to have a settable "cycles per hour" function. With steam heating this is usually set at one cycle per hour.

 The second is that with steam heating the general opinion is the using the setback function on the thermostat is of limited value as you burn more btus bringing the cooler boiler water, steam pipes and house back up to heat than you do just maintaining the original temperature. It is considered that a setback of more than 4 -5 degrees is counterproductive.

Vents Hissing-  As was mentioned the hissing means your system is making steam when there is a call for water. This probably means your Aquastat  is set to too high a temperature and should be set a bit lower.

With winter coming on I would get a steam pro check your system for you. You probably need the boiler cleaned and the controls checked. You might want to take a look in the Find a Contractor section at the top of this page as there are some very good steam pros listed there and there may be one close to you. You didn't mention where you were located. Scroll past the zip code function and look in "States" as it is more reliable.



Another thing I would suggest is you take a look in the "Shop" section at the top of this page. There are some very good books on residential steam heating available there.The best one to start with is "We Got Steam Heat!"  Here's a link to it:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence

It's easy, humorous reading and in an evening of two of reading it will put you light years ahead in your knowledge of steam heating. This knowledge in this book will make you comfortable and save you a lot of money!



 Tell us more about your steam system and post some pictures of the boiler and one of the radiators so we can see what you have.

- Rod

CoreyT

pics and more info...

Thanks for the help guys.



Rod, your mention about the Aquastat being set too high makes sense now. When we had the inspection done we were told it was set higher than normal, I think the water coming out at full heat is 180 degrees. I didn't think the two were connected, but I'll start bringing the water temp down to a better temp and hopefully the other issue goes away as well.



As for the radiators and boiler, attached are some pics I just took. To me it appears I have a few different types of radiators in the house, so I took pics of the 3 main styles I see. My other radiators are all just different sizes of these same styles. There is a picture of the boiler, it's model info, and the oil burner too in case that helps. All the radiators have the same air vent on them, a redi-vent no. 1. Hope this info helps with any tips for the thermostat and whatever other tips everyone might have for me with these pieces of equipment.



On the thermostat, my current on is a Honeywell RTH110B. My reasons for replacing it are that I would like to have a programmable just to get to a daytime/nighttime set. However it also seems to be on the outs anyways. I put in brand new batteries as the light was flashing, and it still flashes. Plus with the new batteries it was giving me temp reading and responding to the controls, but it wouldn't fire the boiler when I raised the temp past the current temp in the room. It's placed in what I think is a good spot, on a wall in the living room area. Nothing is close to it, so it should be in a good spot to get a decent temp reading.

lchmb

nice

How about some pic's of the piping above and behind the boiler? As far as t-stat's, check your local supply house, there are a lot of options available, just make sure it list's for steam. My only other suggestion would be to get someone in to service your unit and maybe concider upgrading your control's and motor. I like to add pre and post purge to a system with interupted ignition.. It seems to make them run better and less likely to have a soot issue...

Rod

Cure for Summer "Hissing" ?

Hi Corey-

Thanks for posting the pictures. As was mentioned, post some pictures of the boiler from all sides so we can see the piping connected to the boiler. (We can blow up the pictures if we need more detail.)   Looks like you have a one pipe steam system. “One pipe” in that there is only one pipe connected to each radiator.



I don’t know if you have the boiler‘s installation manual so I attached a pdf copy for you.

One of the things you need to do is to determine and mark the boiler’s designed waterline. This measure is made when the boiler is not operating (cold) and according to the diagram on Page 15 of the manual, the measurement from the floor to the waterline should be 26 7/8 inches. I would use a magic marker and make a mark on the sight glass for the waterline.



Hissing- I’ve attached a section from Page 18 of the manual that says to avoid steaming during the summer raise the water level 1 inch above the normal waterline. So this may cure your “hissing” problem.  



Caution- I don’t know whether you have run across this yet but it is very important that when ever you add  “new” (fresh) water to the boiler that you bring the boiler water to a boil as this drives off excess oxygen in the new water. This excess oxygen is very corrosive and can shorten the life of your boiler.



I labeled one of your boiler pictures with names of the installed items.  One of the things that would concern me is the piping and ball valve coming off the Skim Port. I don’t know if you have young kids or might have young kids present at times but if anyone accidentally opened this valve, they would get drenched with boiling water and live steam. (Steam burns are very very bad!!)   I would put a pipe cap on the end of this pipe as a precaution. On my boiler, besides plugging the open piping, I also remove the valve handles and store them on a piece of wire hanging on a nail. Just a thought.

- Rod

 

CoreyT

thanks

Thanks for the info, and the manual, guys, this is helping a lot. I attached some pics of the pipes coming out of the back of the boiler as well.



As for the thermostat, I am looking at either a Filtrete 3M50 or 3M30, the Honeywell VisionPro 8000, or one of the ProThermostats like the Pro1IAQ T905. It's kind of confusing because I can only find one thermostat that even mentions team (the Honeywell).

Rod

Good Piping!

Hi Corey- Your boiler piping looks pretty decent and it would seem that who ever installed it followed the installation manual reasonably well. This is a BIG plus! If you stick around the Wall awhile you will see some boiler piping jobs that are disasters which is costing the owners a lot of extra fuel and poor heating.



Insulation-  The one thing I think you need to look into is insulating your steam piping. Here’s a good article by Dan on the subject:

 http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/325/Piping/300/Why-you-should-insulate-steam-pipes

Also one of the members of the Wall, Crash , did a great write up on insulation a few week back . Here is the link:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/137178/Insulation#p1236446



I labeled a couple of your latest pictures with the common names used in steam heating. Note that even though it is the same pipe, the Dry Return becomes the Wet Return when it drops below the level of the boiler’s waterline. I really found this confusing when I first started reading the steam books and since then found that this also trips up others.



Main Vent-   In “tweeking” your pictures I think I located one of your main vents. You should have a main vent on each main. Post a picture of these so we can get a better look at them.



Thermostats- I have the manuals for the Honeywell TH6000, RTH 7000, and TH 8000. Click on my name and send me an email and I will email the manuals back to you. That way you can compare features and decide on what you want.

Have a great weekend!

- Rod

  

CoreyT

main vents

I tried grabbing pics of the two main vents, but I don't have a good flashlight for it, and they're in a dark spot. I put two pics below which might work though. Either way they are labeled as Vent-Rite No. 75, both of them.

lchmb

one more thought

Insulation...

moneypitfeeder

Here's a little tip

We had a heck of a time trying to figure our thermostat issues out. Went to a reputable supply house (after the last pro I let into my house miswired the boiler and burnt my thermostat), and purchased a thermostat that they said was rated for steam. I kept telling my husband to make sure it was set for 1 cycle per hour, because while I turn wrenches and fix things, I don't program anything whether its a vcr, dvd, cell phone, you name it. He kept telling me that wasn't in the instructions , and finally I read them and low and behold there wasn't any info on how to set the cycles per hour. After months of using it with standard setting in the installation manual, and our boiler kicking on all the time, I got fed up and went to Honeywells website where I found that they had an alternate set of downloadable instructions that had the "Pro Features" (these were not included in the box). That was the set of instructions that told you how to access the menu to set the cycles per hour. Let me tell you, I was not pleased that I had to ferret out that info, cause I wasted alot of fuel thinking that wasn't the correct thermostat, and we'd have to buy another new one. The setting instructions were so easy, that even I could do it, you pressed 2 buttons simultaneously till the display blinked, then entered the setting you wanted in an easy to read menu. I have the honeywell PRO TH4110D. Now it works like a champ. Best of Luck.

CoreyT

What a difference 10 degrees makes

So the temps here in the northeast are dropping, and now the radiators are doing some new things. Quick update, I'm about halfway through the We Got Steam Heat book. I replaced my thermostat with a Honeywell FocusPro 600 (61101021). I have the cycles set to 1 per hour and that fixed what I thought was the hissing for the system heating hot water. What I know now tells me that the system was cycling 4 times every hour (the setting on the old thermostat). So the random hissing is fixed. I also had a radiator leaking from the nut that connects the radiator to the valve. I fixed that with some teflon tape and tightening the nut (please tell me if that was bad).



Now however we have more things happening. It's colder so the system is on longer. With that happening it seems I have a few things going on.

1 - It sounds like the air in the entire system is coming out of my living room vent. My understanding from the book is that the main vents should be the exit point for the majority of the air. But to me those vents seem like they would be hit after the radiators with their vents. Am I misunderstanding the system flow, or something else? Whats the best way to test the main vent? Just feel for air escaping on system start?



2 - I have one radiator that was not heating at all. I even walked the basement one night to confirm that it's pipe was room temp using a temp gun. Now it is heating up, but I think it may be doing so only because the system is on so long. Shouldn't that radiator be heating up along with all the others at roughly the same time? My initial thought is that it's air vent is clogged or stuck. I am still thinking of shutting the radiator off, and trying to clean the vent, or replace if needed. I also think that vent being clogged may lend to why the living room vent is so loud.



3 - The bedroom radiator makes a little hissing noise, not whistling like the air coming out of the system, it sounds almost like it's steam to me, then I hear a little tick, and it stops. My thought is that the vent is spitting, then I hear the valve pop closed.



I know it's a lot, and I am planning on having someone come out soon to look at the system. But I am having trouble finding someone up here, my oil company says they do steam heat, but I'm sure a lot of people say they do it, and whether or not they know anything is the trick. It's also a little tight with funds right now so I am trying to do anything little myself first so we only need to spend money for something necessary.

Rod

Questions

Hi Corey- It sounds like you are progressing well. I added answers to each of your questions

- Rod

What a difference 10 degrees makes

So the temps here in the northeast are dropping, and now the radiators are doing some new things. Quick update, I'm about halfway through the We Got Steam Heat book. I replaced my thermostat with a Honeywell FocusPro 600 (61101021). I have the cycles set to 1 per hour and that fixed what I thought was the hissing for the system heating hot water. What I know now tells me that the system was cycling 4 times every hour (the setting on the old thermostat). So the random hissing is fixed. I also had a radiator leaking from the nut that connects the radiator to the valve. I fixed that with some teflon tape and tightening the nut (please tell me if that was bad).

Ans- If it’s fixed, fine - let it be. You might want to use a tiny bit of the red high temp RTV gasket seal (available in auto parts stores) in the future as with using teflon tape there is a worry that small pieces might get into the system and clog things like your air vents.



Now however we have more things happening. It's colder so the system is on longer. With that happening it seems I have a few things going on.

1 - It sounds like the air in the entire system is coming out of my living room vent. My understanding from the book is that the main vents should be the exit point for the majority of the air. But to me those vents seem like they would be hit after the radiators with their vents. Am I misunderstanding the system flow, or something else? Whats the best way to test the main vent? Just feel for air escaping on system start?

Ans- I’m a fan of IR thermometer guns. Since you have one you should be able to tell when steam hits your main vents. I wouldn’t test the vents by using your hand as steam can give you a very bad burn. Use a strip of newspaper to check the flow from the main vent. What do you have for main vents now? Are they working well? You may even want to increase your main venting capacity. Unlike radiators you can’t over vent your mains!



2 - I have one radiator that was not heating at all. I even walked the basement one night to confirm that it's pipe was room temp using a temp gun. Now it is heating up, but I think it may be doing so only because the system is on so long. Shouldn't that radiator be heating up along with all the others at roughly the same time? My initial thought is that it's air vent is clogged or stuck. I am still thinking of shutting the radiator off, and trying to clean the vent, or replace if needed. I also think that vent being clogged may lend to why the living room vent is so loud.

Ans- Make sure the radiator’s steam valve is fully open and check that the radiator is slightly sloped towards the inlet pipe.  If you question whether the radiator vent is bad, swap (with the system turned off and cool) it with a vent you know is working. Radiator vents open and close constantly therefore  need to be replaced from time to time. You can try boiling a stuck vent in pan of white vinegar on the stove as this sometimes frees up the vent.



3 - The bedroom radiator makes a little hissing noise, not whistling like the air coming out of the system, it sounds almost like it's steam to me, then I hear a little tick, and it stops. My thought is that the vent is spitting, then I hear the valve pop closed.

Ans- Check the slope on the radiator. It sounds as though the vent is working fine. At what  pressure is your system is you system operating. It should be under 2 PSI max.



I know it's a lot, and I am planning on having someone come out soon to look at the system. But I am having trouble finding someone up here, my oil company says they do steam heat, but I'm sure a lot of people say they do it, and whether or not they know anything is the trick. It's also a little tight with funds right now so I am trying to do anything little myself first so we only need to spend money for something necessary.  

Ans- I was in the same boat. What you learn from reading Dan's books allows you do do a lot of the normal maintenance yourself and also determine if the people working on your system know there job.

CoreyT

Main vents

I turned the heat up and hung around the basement while it ran for a while (15-20 minutes). The main vents never seemed to do anything. I put a piece of newspaper in front of them periodically, no movement at all. I checked them with the temp gun, and one was 70-75 degrees, the second was closer to 80, but they never went higher. The the main vents say Vent-Rite no. 75.



I can feel the pipe getting warm in the spot where the takeoff is for our dining room radiator, but that takeoff never heats up it seems.



I checked the setting on the pressuretrol, see the pic below, if I am reading it right it is set at .5 PSI. The pressure gauge never moved either. The one thing that was moving was the water level in the glass. It moved a little at first, maybe within the 1/4" range, then it dropped about a half inch and moved back up. It wasn't frothing or anything but it does seem to move quite a bit.



I'm probably going to have my oil company send out someone to take a look. They said they do steam heat, I guess we'll see how much they know and how good they are. It seems like I have a lot little (I hope) things going on. Luckily the heat is working so it's not an emergency other than potentially wasting fuel and shortening system life I guess.

BobC

plugged main vents?

That setting on the front of the pressuretrol is fine, if you remove the front cover the white wheel inside should be set to "1". The stock pressure gauges do not always work at the very low end of the scale, a lot of pep[le add an auxiliary 0-3PSI gaude so they can see whats going on. Is the water in your sight glass bouncing up and down might calm down when the main vents are working but it may indicate the boiler needs skimming to remove any impurities in the water.?



The Ventrite air valves may be stuck shut, that can happen because they develop mineral deposits that can seal them shut. Unless your steam main is short you might need a larger capacity valve like the Gorton #1 or #2 (if it's a 30-40 ft long main). When the system is off and cool you can unscrew that valve and try boiling it in white vinegar for a half hour, that often removes the calcium and gets you back in business - just turn the system off so it does not try and make steam with the air valve off.



Once the main vents are working you can check to make sure ther air vents on all the radiators are working.



Bob

CoreyT

main vents

One of my mains runs around the majority of the house, it's around 76 feet long total. The second main runs the back of the house and is around 58 feet long. Would those Gorton #2 vents be ok for that long, or do I need to go bigger or something?

Steamhead

The Gorton #2

is the biggest main vent made today. I'd use two of them on the long main. Start with one #2 on the shorter main, and add a Gorton #1 to it if the steam distribution lags behind the longer main. 

CoreyT

main vents

Thanks for the help. I'm going to order two Gorton #2s and put one on each main for now, that should at least fix the clogging and get it a little closer to up to par. Not sure what to expect from a plumber for adding a second main vent to the long main though so that might have to wait a little longer.



Out of curiosity, are these Redi-Vent vents that I have all over the house junk? I can't seem to find much about them, so if it make sense I might just replace all the radiator vents too since I'll be making an order. Might as well pack as much into one box as I can

Steamhead

The "Redi-Vents"

look like Vent-Rite #1 units. I'd keep them.



To add a second vent to a main, you simply install a tee in the riser where the present vent is located.

CoreyT

main vents

I'm going to order the Gorton #2 vents tonight, and I just want to make sure of one thing. It looks like my Vent-Rite #75s are 1/2" just like the Gorton's. Is that the standard size for all main vents? I just want to be sure I don't end up with 2 vents I can't use without having to do something like change the riser to the vent itself.