Help me prioritize my many problems

steamnoob

First off, I bought the book, this actually seems like a fun field in which to geek out.



So I was a complete steam noob when I bought this old Baltimore row house this summer. I did fire the burner during inspection, checked a few radiators, dismissed some of the knocking as normal when the boiler hadn't run in while. I was more concerned with roof and plumbing, and sadly neglected the boiler, which looks pretty new and recently was converted from oil to gas feed.



Did my first real test last weekend,all sorts of problems. Major water hammer, gurgling radiators, and took forever to heat the upstairs radiators. Found the system was overfilled with water. Drained off a lot, seemed to finally unswamp some radiators, but now my low water cutoff is coming on soon after the system comes up to pressure (2psi), and stays off for about ten minutes while condensate comes back to the system. Closed a few unused radiators (kitchen, spare bedroom), and added a bit more water (til gauge wasabout 3/4 full when cool) seemed to help greatly, but the level still dips down quite a bit when running. I don't want to add more water, since that seem to cause the original problem.



So called in a local HVAC to take a look. After the tech made a few calls to his "steam guru", his diagnosis is that the return pipes are clogged and need to be flushed and possibly replaced (he suggested copper). Said the the low water shut offs must have prompted previous owner to keep filling the boiler (manual) and cranking the pressure up to 4psi) Also pointed out I don't have a hartford loop, something about the returns not dropping below the water line before meeting the boiler connection, blah blah blah



I noticed another "problem", it looks like a recent renovation put some copper pipes to the back two radiators. I see copper to steal connections, I don't see a proper slope (it looks like it slopes the wrong way in the pictures, but it probably is flat in reality. The biggest problem is see is what appears to be a jury rigged "bend" in the pipe, which appears stressed and by my reckoning is not up to code.



So given my limited budget, what should I prioritize first? The flush... adding the proper loops. Should I attempt to put the correct copper fittings and fix the bend problems, and maybe try to get some more slope (something I imagine I can do myself), or should I just bite the bullet and get someone to replace them with steel pipes like the rest of the house. Should I even consider replacing the returns with copper. Can't they be roto-rootered or something?

steamnoob

addendum

I should note, the two radiators that have the copper pipes will be rarely used, so I was thinking any stress on them would be minimal... still, that "bend" bothers me.

David Nadle

Post a pic of the pipes above the boiler.

You don't appear to have a header or even an equalizer. When the boiler builds pressure it probably pushes down the water line and stacks water up into the returns. This is probably why your LWCO keeps cutting out. I think you're going to have to address the boiler's installation before anything else. 

nicholas bonham-carter

Baltimore priorities

You are most fortunate to have come to this site!

Of the experience of a century of man-years of steam and hydronics, most of that is concentrated in one man-in your town-steam head,so read his comments from the link

below, and ask him to do a general service, and inspection. With his help, you can learn to do much yourself!

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum/profile/67695/Steamhead

Order the books from the shop here (a steamy deal).

I suspect that the wet returns are now too high, and should be closer to the floor. David correctly points out that pressure may be pushing the return water up into those horizontal pipes and robbing the waterline.--nbc

nicholas bonham-carter

More thoughts on system priorities

Is this system 1-pipe or 2-pipe? If 1-pipe, the radiators with the copper lines can be temporarily shut off by turning the air vents upside down.

Try to find the area of water-hammer and look for improper slope in a dry return, or in a certain section of the steam supply. A level is the only sure way to detect a miss lopped pipe. Putting tape on the pipe, and marking an arrow pointing in the direction slopping down can be helpful in the case of a complicated piping layout (I had 2 arrows pointing to each other, and I knew I had found a problem).

Keep a log of boiler behavior, and your own activities, so the pro can deal with factual symptoms as much as possible.

Download the installation manual from the mfg's website for reference. The piping of supplies and returns should at a minimum match those in the manual, as far as pipe sizes, and layout.

Locate the main (not radiator) vents, and see if air seems to escape from them at startup. The radiator vents CANNOT do this job, and the fuel company will charge you plenty to force the system air out of constipated little radiator vents.

When the deferred maintenance, and knuckleheadedness has been corrected in your system, you will realize why it was chosen in the first place as a source of quiet, comfortable, and economical heat-NBC

steamnoob

So much to learn

So is it possible to have a semi-operable steam system without any sort of main vent, equalizer, or loop? Cuz I don't see them. Here is a sketch of my system, where should the main vents be.



I'll contact Steamhead next week. I guess I'll focus on getting the install right. I'm guessing the advice here is that all the new vents, loops, et al should be black steel, not copper, correct? Also attached a pic of the t above the boiler.



Tested the system this morning, still left the two back copper lined radiators closed. The boiler only had to reach pressure twice before the upstairs radiators were hot, so that's an improvement. And while the water level bounced, it did not cut off. One lower radiator seems to have trouble getting all the coils hot, middle ones take quite a while. Figure that is an issue with the pitch of that radiator... correct? Not a huge deal though.

BobC

Problems

The system may produce heat configured that way but it's probably costing you a ton of money to do so. That near boiler piping has to be reconfigured, it's not going to be cheap but it will pay for itself in fuel savings and comfort. All piping on the steam side should be black steel, copper is fine below the waterline on the return side.



Is the room with the radiator does not heat all the way the room with the thermostat? It's not unusual for radiators to not heat fully on cool fall days because the boiler doesn't run long enough before the thermostat shuts everything down. Any radiator that does not heat correctly should be checked with a level to be sure it pitches back towards the boiler a bit, also the piping in the basement should be checked for correct pitch. Make sure the air vent on that radiator is expelling air when steam comes up. What kind of air vents do you have on the radiators? balancing a steam system takes some work and it's damn near impossible to do without good main vents. can you see any points towards the ends of the steam mains where main air vents used to be?



If you can get steamhead to look over that system I'm sure he will know what has to be done to get it running like it should.



Bob

David Nadle

Interesting

Your radiator vents are doing all the work, which means it takes too long and the radiators furthest down the line may be getting cheated. Your returns are performing the equalization, maybe inadequately. The lack of a Hartford loop is a safety issue rather than a performance issue. Should one of your wet pipes develop a leak, all the water will leave the boiler. Your LWCO should trip off but the danger of a dry-fired boiler is so great that a belt-and-suspenders approach is recommended.

Whoever fixes this is going to want to cut out the bull-headed tee as well. Does the main slope down away from the boiler in both directions?

lchmb

steamhead

If I had a steam system, he would be the only man to work on it. He does incredible work!! BTW, if you still have the install manual, you will find a piping diagram in there that will show you have a lot of issue's. Getting them fixed now will save you alot this winter...

Hap_Hazzard

A couple of observations

I think your main vents may have been replaced with radiators. I've seen systems where someone has added on a baseboard or radiator by screwing a pipe into the end of the main where the main vent should be, running it out to a radiator or baseboard, and attaching a large vent to the radiator or baseboard. If the baseboard is basically a short, large diameter pipe with fins on it, it can actually work, after a fashion, but if it's a large baseboard or radiator at the end of a long, torturous convoluted run of uninsulated copper pipe, not so much. The pipe fills up with water if it's not pitched right, and then the air can't escape from the vent.



From your sketch it looks like the return is seriously wrong. It looks like they tried to do a dry return, but they didn't keep it high enough. Any steam-carrying piping in the system, and this includes the dry return, must be more than 28 inches above the maximum water line. (Thanks to steamhead for pointing this out to me when I was designing my dry return.) This is called the "A dimension," and it is critical to the effective movement of steam out of the boiler and the return of water to the boiler. In effect, this system is harnessing the power of the steam to try to push the water back through the return. So the whole system heats up, slowly, and eventually the thermostat cycles--or the pressuretrol, depending on where it's set, and the water can finally return to the boiler. This is a very expensive, inefficient way to run a furnace. I can't see any way to fix this without re-piping the return, and that can be difficult. Without knowing the constraints of your architecture I can't estimate the time and effort involved, but I wouldn't start a project like that until spring. A pro could probably knock it off in a day or two, but guys like us have regular jobs to go to and a pretty big learning curve to climb as we go.

steamnoob

Main slopes

Responding to some questions... the mains don't appear to have any appreciable slope, if anything, they slope towards the boiler from the south, and away to the north. I dont' see anything that ever could have been a vent, though surmise some major work was done recently where the copper pipes were installed. I do have an unused line to what used to be a separate 3rd BR. Could that be easily retrofitted for a vent? And I've seen explanations, but still don't get what the problem is with a T over the boiler?



My radiator vents are ventor brand (and one unlabled replacement). I swapped one around that seemed sticky with the unit off the spare radiator. They all seem to be hissing away reasonably well. The half operating radiator wouldn't have been affected by the thermostat, I cranked it up to 90 while I was testing. It was really water logged, so imagine it might have some slope problems... shimmed it up a bit more. We'll see, but I think that might be the least of my problems.



Steamhead has been contacted. Is he really located in Baltimore?

Steamhead

Thanks, guys

Steamnoob, I just checked our office voice mail as well as our e-mail, and haven't got a message from you yet.....



That looks like a typical Charles Village small rowhouse steam system. Straightening it out should be fairly easy, though the boiler will need repiping at some point. I'm interested in seeing how much your boiler is oversized- many of them are in those rowhouses.

steamnoob

thanks

I sent you a message through this system, didn't see a phone number to call. Close to C-village, I'm over in Remmington on 30th St. I have a burnam v-8 series look relatively new... the manual says oil fired, but the seller somehow converted it to gas before I bought it.