Stupid Steam Question?

icesailor

I'm not a Steamer. I don't see much of it where I work.

I was asked by an electrician to look at a burner to get a steam boiler going. It's in a Winery, Brewery, Still. It has a dual fuel Power Flame burner. It needed a new RM7800 burner control. It runs fine now.

In looking over the system, they are using the steam boiler to run a still. I think it is way over-sized but that's not my problem. I haven't seen it steaming yet. The boiler (Peerless) is probably piped properly. It has all the things it should have. But they are running it at 15# steam and the person said it surges on and off. The still isn't that big. It appears that there is a 6" riser off the steam header/collector which goes about 16' in the air. The steam to the still comes off the top. The steam trap/condensate return comes off the bottom. The condensate return drops down to a receiver/pump to pump it back to the boiler. The Still condensate return returns through the same connections.

So, my questions. If you are running 15# steam, you are running 250 +/- degree water. Is there a thermostat in the steam traps that should match the water temperature? If it depends on condensed water to open the trap. is the temperature 250 degrees or (say) 240 degrees? Will the water revert back to steam when it enters the condensate return at (say) 240  degrees when there is no pressure?

I would think that you don't need all that energy to run the still. You are only trying to boil off the alcohol that boils at 160 degrees or such? Those good ole' boys up in the mountains aren't running 15# steam in those copper Still/Kettles thay have?

Persons who have worked here before have not always had an understanding of the mechanics of hydronics. I'm just trying to get a handle on understanding some of this. The owner knows he has issues and wants me to help him out.

Any help is appreciated.

Steamhead

If you can lower the pressure

they will save a lot of money. But how low can you go?



I'd start by talking to whoever built the still, if possible. See what temperature the unit requires, and how many BTUs they actually need to get the job done. If you can transfer that amount of heat thru the available heating surface at a lower pressure, there's no need to run it that high.



Check the ratings on the traps. They should be rated for 15 PSI. Traps rated for higher pressure have smaller openings and they won't work well at lower pressures. If the traps are the standard 6-bolt (Sarco type) F&T units, you just change the faceplace to one with a lower pressure rating. The faceplace contains all the working parts.



Oh, and if you haven't done so already, tune the burner with your digital analyzer. We often find larger burners that have not been properly tuned.

icesailor

Stupid/Smart Steam:

Steamy,

I have a saying, "It's amazing how much money you can save by doing it wrong the first time".

I have a new one.

It's amazing how brilliant (smart) you will seem if you read the manufacturers piping requirements".  From what I have read here in the past, and the problems others have when boilers are changed and they don't work, I really got an eyeful of what "A Professional Steam Engineer" designs. After a closer look, most everything I saw seemed odd. When I went and looked at the manufacturers piping for the boiler (17 sections), I really got an eyeful. If the boiler wasn't so over-sized for the application, it might have other issues. It was designed for more Stills but they are not there at this time. Because the Still is European and the ratings are in Metric, I didn't bother to convert them.

Have you ever seen a Watts 9-11 combo back-flow and PRV, feeding a M-M feeder and the boiler was cutting out on low water because the pressure in the steam boiler was higher than the PRV setting? I just did. And the equalizer pipe rises off the top of the steam header and pipes back down to the equalizer return. The steam supply is off the end of the steam chest and the 4- 4" risers rise straight up into the collector with no 90 degree offsets to the header. But I digress.

It's nice to learn something here.

As far as combustion, It was tested sometime in the past but I ran it through mine. It was OK. This wasn't my goal to get into this thing. I'm a victim of happenstance or circumstance. I'm not sure which.

As far as heat for distillation, it seems that you don't need as much energy at the beginning or at the end. It is in the middle of boiling off the alcohol process that you need the most heat. They know what they are doing in doing what they do. Someone else didn't. Nothing to do with them.

Thank God for 3/4" PEX tube. You know, you can series loop a whole house with that stuff? Upstairs and down? They can, I can't. I missed that lesson.

Techman

Still.

How many gallons of wine are in the Still ? How fast does the wine have to get up to temp in? The faster the better? How long does the wine stay @ this temp? Was it always 1 boiler -1 Still ?

icesailor

Steamin' Stills:

Wine and Beer are fermented. The reaction between sugar and years convert the sugar to alcohol. A "Still" distills the products by heating and boiling off the alcohol. Alcohol boils off at around 160 degrees or so. From what I have been told, you don't need as much heat at the beginning and end of the process, it is in the middle of the process that you need the extra heat.

When you make gasoline or other petroleum products from crude oil, you heat up the crude. The different products in the crude boil off at different temperatures. LP Gas is a product that comes off from the higher temperature in the distillation process.

Steamhead

Post some pictures

sounds like a classic de-knuckleheading project.