Need some guidance

chrisv

Here is my situation the family is growing and i need to finish the basement the problem is that one of the mains is right in my way is it possible to remove and revamp the system so it would be Little more space friendly . here are some drawing i came up with any help would be greatly appreciated.... i'll take some pictures so you could see what im talking about

thank you

chris

chrisv

Need some guidance pictures

i took some pics

Tim_Hodgson

guidance

It looks like you want to remove one steam main and replace its steam flow from the end of the other main. Calculate the EDR of all the radiator. If the mains are large enough, then you have a good chance. I'd check the sizing against the old charts in "The lost art of steam heating"  Then I would look at the pitching of the steam and condensate piping. Remember, just say no to water trapping. EVERY pipe drains to the boiler !!

Tim

chrisv

total EDR

ok so i came up with approximalty 444 EDR. The house was built in 1923 it is 1400sqft

i have a oil  burnham v83 3section boiler

what do you guys think?

ChrisJ

I think

You are in the same boat I was only worse.  That V83 is WAY too small for that much radiation.



Are you sure you calculated your EDR accurately?  I have 360sqft of EDR in a 1700sqft house and even that is over sized quite a bit.

chrisv

EDR recalculation request

Heres what i have also the boiler was installed by previous owner  in 2005 I'm a Little upset if this is the wrong size boiler and will have to replace it

any suggestions on equipment or what to do would be greatly appreciated

EDR recalculation request

25" 4 column 9 sec

20" 5 col 12 sec

20" 5 col 8 sec

23" 3 col 12sec

20" 5 col 17 sec

20" 5 col 17 sec

38" 3 col 5 sec

20" 3 col 12 sec

20" 3 col 12 sec

20" 3 col 9 sec

Rod

EDR Chart

Hi Chris- Attached is a sheet to help you figure out the EDR of each radiator. It's better to do your own calculations rather than rely on those given you. I would also make a "quickie"block drawing of where each radiator is located on the steam main showing in the block an identification of the radiator (Bathroom) and its EDR. What you are trying to do is "doable" though you will need to do your homework first. Your drawings are a bit confusing as your radiators should all be connected to the "red" main. What type of steam system do you have?

- Rod

chrisv

OK getting there

Thank you ROD thats what i needed OK i have thin tube radiators so if my calculation are right I'm at 238.8 EDR

keep all the good advice coming!

ONE PIPEWET return system ........

i'm planing on re-piping so should i use a drop header ? and the feed pipes should they be pitched to the boiler or to the return on the other end of the house?

Rod

Dry Return/Wet return

The return pipe(s) which are above the boiler’s waterline are known as the  “Dry Return” (s). When they drop below the waterline level ( and are consequently filled with boiler water) they are know as the “Wet Return” (s).   If the return pipe is vertical, above the waterline it is know as the Dry Return and below the waterline the “Wet Return” even though it is the same pipe! (See attached drawing)  I also found the dry return/wet return rather confusing at first!



Dropheaders are the only way to go as they produce very dry steam.



Not quite sure what you mean by this phrase : “the feed pipes should they be pitched to the boiler or to the return on the other end of the house?” What are you calling the “feed pipes”?

- Rod

ChrisJ

238sqft

Sounds a lot more like it.  That makes the V83 about perfect I'd say.

chrisv

drop header ?

since I'm running out of time i called someone in to help me and now I'm concerned . my question is can you run a drop header with 2 returns like in this or does one end have to be closed ?

Dave in QCA

One end should be closed

If you have two boiler risers connectiong to the header, they must both connect first.  The steams should go in only one direction toward the equlizer pipe.  Between the boiler risers and the equalizer is where the building main(s) should be connected.

chrisv

header ?

so i should worry he's trying to explain to me theres no differance .I knew i wasn't wrong ! how do i explain why it should be the other way ?

Dave in QCA

One direction only!

Inside the properly configured header, the steam will travel in one direction only.  There should not be two equalizers. 

What is the make and model of your boiler?

chrisv

??? not happy

weil mclain EG35 .....i've been reading this forum for months to get a good grip on things i explained in detail what i wanted and was shot down multiple times saying thats for very big systems ect... this the way it should be ect.....i finally convinced him to do a drop header and this is wher im at now

Dave in QCA

Dan's books?

Do you have any of Dan's books?

chrisv

reply

huge mistake #1 was not getting those books . i was goin to do this myself ended up having to hire someone ...in its not looking good

Dave in QCA

eg35 installation

The manual for the eg35 only calls for one riser.  Nothing wrong with using 2.  It will slow down the velocity of the steam coming out of the boiler.  So, if you're using 2 risers, it would be piped like the manual shows for the EGH series, shown on the same page.   It is actually on page 14.  Here is the link.  http://weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/boilers/gas-boilers/eg/eg_boiler_manual.pdf  

The only difference between the picture and your system is that you're doing a drop header and your building has 2 mains connecting.  The two building mains should connect next to each other, between the risers and the equalizer.  There is ONLY one equalizer.



I suspect this guy has probably piped boilers wrong all of his life.  You won't be able to tell him he is wrong, he will be sure that he knows better.  So, you might be better off just to say this is the way I want my header to be.  Just because.

chrisv

reply

yes i did read the install  and thank you very much and you absolutely right about the guy you hit the nail right on the head the problem is he's a friend of my brothers and i will go about it the way you said . there are two other concerns 1 being all the main pipes are pitched towards the boiler .... #2 i requested for him to use (3) #1 gorton vents on the long main and 2 on the short .... i guess you could imagine what he said

Dave in QCA

Then you have a counterflow system!

Counterflow piping requires a different approach.  See the next figure in the manual.  Except, that you are doing a drop header...  

Maybe one of the wallies on here can draw up an diagram of how your system should be piped.   I've got a good picture in my head, but can't draw worth a hoot.

chrisv

reply

i would appriciate the help ... i'm alittle embarassed to show more pics of this install since im not very happy with the way things are turning out

chrisv

round 2

so i got him to kinda bend in my direction , here's tonights ? after reviewing the manual the recommended  equalizer size is 1 1/2" as you can see in the picture he decided to start with a 1 1/4 reducer and snake it back to the return **** is this right or what?

Dave in QCA

Here is my opinion

Ok, thought about it quite a bit.  Looked at WM instructions for a counterflow system and their piping diagram.  It appears to me that the drop header is going to do the same job as the piping for a counter flow as they show it.



Here is the order of connections on the drop header.  One end should be capped.  Then the connection for the first boiler riser followed by the connection for the second boiler riser.  The next connection should be the first main to the building piping, and the next connection the second main, then at this end, it turns down with the adapter el (that I can see in the photo) to the equalizer and return.



In this configuration, steam is only traveling one direction in the header.  Any water particles blown out of the boiler will settle in the header and travel with the flow of steam and will return down the equalizer.  The condensate from the system will be traveling back in the mains against the flow of the steam.  When the condensate drops into the header, it will flow with the steam, not against it, toward the equalizer.



If I have missed something here, I am sure one of the pros will chime in.



Good luck on the project.

Dave in QCA

leap frogging

I was writing at the same time you posted an update.   My response below was describing what your guy actually built.  The snaking around in the equalizer should not be a problem.  Only thing important there is that the condensate can flow back to the boiler by gravity.  Looks to me like it will.

chrisv

reply

once again thank you .. yes the other end is capped and i requested for the valves as for the snaking thing ill just have him move that down about 2 ft  . should i be concerned of the diameter of the equalizer the minimum as stated is 1 1/2 and he's using 1 1/4

Dave in QCA

Yes you should

The equalizer should not be any smaller than the size that is recommended by Weil-McLain.  Usually, the equalizer is only carrying boiler water that has traveled out of the boiler with the steam.  In your case, it will be carrying all of the condensate from the system too, so there is no room for reducing it.  Is there a reason he can't go straight down, then back to the boiler when he gets at the level of the return tapping?  If not, he could 45 down and over.  It is best to not have the zig zag going on above the water line.  Once it is below the water line, it makes no difference.



And of course, on this set up, there is no Harford Loop, as is shown in the Weil-McLain manual.

chrisv

reply

he is also building a Hartford loop on the bottom just didn't take a pic ....i guess another early morning call to him before he starts should cheer up his day ..this is unbelievable I'm so stressed out about this it's sad that someone in the plumbing field could be so blind and not research or educate themselves on the tasks at hand ...like i said before i should have did this on my own all the information and guidance everyone on this forum was a great help to me THANK YOU! ill keep you all posted

chrisv

reply

Dave in QCA

counterflow?

Chris, you did say that the steam mains slope toward the boiler didn't you? 

Is there any other low point in the system where he is going to bring a return back to the boiler? 

If the answer is yes to the first question and no to the second, I can't figure out what he could possibly hook up to the Hartford Return. 



Pehaps he is calling the equalizer the Hartford Loop. 



He should look at page 15 in the manual.  His equalizer piping between the header and the return tapping of the boiler should look like the picture in the book.



Technically, a Hartford Loop is where a wet return line turns up and then joins to the equalizer line via a tee fitting located 2" below the boiler water line.  See the pictures on page 14 of the manual.  The equalizer is the 1 1/2" pipe that runs between the header and the return tapping of the boiler.

chrisv

counterflow

yes i was thinking this also he has the mains sloping back to the boiler and he also has 1 1/4 returns at the end of each main back to the boiler ..... I'm confused also hence all the questions

Dave in QCA

Hmmm

Well, perhaps not all of the main slopes back to the boiler.  The returns from the end of the main will have to come back to the boiler.  And therefore, they will have to tie in with a properly piped Hartford Loop. 

Of course, if the entire length of each main slopes toward the boiler... I'm not sure what is going to run down the returns, if they are connected a the high end of the main.  Water does not run up hill.

moneypitfeeder

small thing

That I noticed in your 2nd pic (3 posts up not the header pics) is that it looks like there is a riser off the main piped from a tee to 2 90*s. 1 pipe steam (from what I've read) really needs to come off the main at a 45* angle. Maybe one of the pros will weigh in. But you want your steam to travel up the pipe and not be hindered by the condensate returning.

Danny Scully

Repipe

Forgive me if this was asked already, but was the majority of the system piping repiped?

Rod

Parallel or counter flow

Hi Chris-

I’m ab it confused . Have we decided yet whether the mains are parallel flow or counter flow?



Parallel flow means the highest point of the steam main is above the boiler and the steam main slopes towards the far end of the steam main farthest from the boiler. With a parallel system you need to have a return pipe leading  from the far end of the steam main  boiler back to the boiler so that the condensate can return to the boiler.



Counter Flow means the lowest point of the steam main is above the boiler and the highest point is the end of the steam main farthest from the boiler. The steam travels up the steam main and the condensate returns down the steam main.



Equalizer - Per Dan’s recommendation, the equalizer pipe should be a minimum of 1 ½ inches.



I’ve attached  a classic drawing of a parallel and counter flow system.  I’ve also attached a drawing of several  possible  counter flow setups using a drop header and some pictures of a excellent multiple main counter flow system with drips, done by Steve Gronski ,a Rhode Island steam pro.



If you mains are counter flow this is how you would want to set them up. If they are a mix of counter flow and parallel flow just pipe the counter flow drip line and the parallel mains return line into the wet return.

- Rod

chrisv

reply

Yes all the pipes in the basement were replaced as for the parallel /coounterflow question  he piped the system counterflow with a dry return at the end of the main and he would not replace the equalizer pipe as my request ... so after me having to hook up the electrics i got it running ...yes i have heat efficient i don't know .  Still not happy after spending a big nut and not getting what it want ....I'm off to Lowe's to get a fitting for the skimming tap i requested it never ends like i said before i should have done it myself and other suggestions would be appreciated

Rod

Steam System

Hi Chris-  Is your system now working okay?   If you have satisfactory heating perhaps at this point the best thing to do would be to just coast through the winter and in the spring regroup and fix the items that you think still need to be addressed.

As for the counterflow main with the return pipe, I'm not sure what your best approach would be to that. The parallel main might  be a better choice if it isn't too hard to re hang the main so the slope ( 1in in 20 ft. ) is correct.  If you stay with  the counterflow  the slope should be 1 inch in  10 ft. and you will need to drip the mains before they drop down to the header.



As to the equalizer pipe size - Dan says that it should be a minimum of 1 1/2 inches and that a larger one isn't a bad idea as it settles down the movement of the boiler's waterline even more.  Try the present one out for a while and see if it operates satisfactorily.



You might still want to get "The Lost Art of Steam Heating "as it has a lot of formulas and suggestions for dealing with odd items in piping installations.  My copy is old and worn and I still use it as a reference at least once a week.

- Rod