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Pipe through foundation walls

Luv'nsteam
Luv'nsteam Member Posts: 272
I have cut a nice hole through my 19" thick foundation.  The granite was fun!  Anyway, I am running three pipes/tubes through the wall and will then need to seal the hole up around the pipe/tubing.  I am prepared with the rocks I removed and a bag of mortar.  I have heard that some metal reacts with concrete and I therefore wish to prevent that.  The materials and purpose are listed below:



1) Black steel pipe: 1 1/4" horizontal run-out, counter-flow, one-pipe steam;



2) Copper tubing, 1/4", for eventual Paul vacuum system upgrade (for those who have followed my other threads, copper is what I have decided to use);



3) Plastic conduit for electrical wires into room being heated with new radiator.  Plastic and steel pipe will not be close together.



How do I do this so my work exists, in tact, for the next 100 years?  (And I know it may not last, but I prefer it <em>not</em> to be my fault).



Thank you,



Mike

Comments

  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
    how about

    fire rated caulk?
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Insulate

    the pipes first with one inch glass fiber pipe wrap.  The insulation will allow the expanding and contracting pipe to move without continually eating away at your mortar.  Insulation will also act as a barrier if you are concerned about a steel/mortar reaction.  Another benefit for the future would be that the pipe could be removed quite easily.
  • Luv'nsteam
    Luv'nsteam Member Posts: 272
    Both ideas sound like

    Options.  I fully intend on insulating all pipe.  I hadn't thought of insulating and then mortaring around the insulation, though.  Interesting idea and the thought of future repairs being easier, also sounds good.  I am thinking about mice, too.  They like insulation.  Maybe steel wool at the entrance will discourage their entry?



    As for fire rated caulk, I will have to look into that, as I know nothing about it. 



    Any other ideas will also be considered. 



    Thank you,



    Mike
  • Dragline
    Dragline Member Posts: 7
    pipe thru foundation

    you should always sleeve pipe penetrations thru foundation walls (code for gas, water & sewer in many locales)

    simply use pvc pipe around your metallic pipe & seal w/ silicone, if necessary
  • Dragline
    Dragline Member Posts: 7
    pipe thru foundation

    you should always sleeve pipe penetrations thru foundation walls (code for gas, water & sewer in many locales)

    simply use pvc pipe around your metallic pipe & seal w/ silicone, if necessary
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Jacketing

    If I had to do another pipe through foundation, I think I would use the PVC jacketing over the insulation prior to the mortar.  That way in the future, if the pipe had to be changed, the insulation could be replaced at the same time.  Plus the PVC is easier to clean up the mortar mess.
  • Polycarp
    Polycarp Member Posts: 135
    Jacket

    I would third (fourth?) jacketing those pipes.  They're going to move, and when they do they're either going to slowly destroy themselves or you infill or both.



    If you already have the pipes in, you can take a thinner-walled PVC and slice it lengthwise.  You can then open it and get it around your pipes.  (Or, if you have the skill, you can use a table saw to split thicker pipe

    and then use zip-ties or duct tape to secure the two halves back

    together around the pipe.) Pick a jacket that is big enough to fit around your insulation.



    When you insulate, you need to think about infiltration (I'm assuming you are going from a basement to an unconditioned crawl space).  Unless your insulation is truly continuous and truly sealed, standard fiberglass jacket insulation is going to allow infiltration.  One way to minimize this impact would be to allow a break in your insulation inside the jacket and to seal with spray-foam insulation.  You want the kind that remains somewhat pliable and should probably go with the fire-break grade stuff.  This will also seal up the area between the insulation and the jacket.
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    The jacketing

    that I was referring to is made from the same pvc as the elbows.  Jacketing comes in a four foot length, and you order it based upon the circumference of your pipe after it has been insulated.  The jacketing has a built in two sided tape, you remove a thin clear plastic and it self sticks to itself.  It is very easy to install.  Just wrap it around the insulated pipe, square it up and hold it, then pull the clear plastic so it will stick to itself, and smooth the tape to set it.  If you do make a mistake, you can remove it and sometimes re-use the two sided tape.
  • Luv'nsteam
    Luv'nsteam Member Posts: 272
    PVC jacketing

    HI Crash,



    That is cool stuff.  I think, however, I would use that on the risers through the living space to keep that insulation protected from fingers, etc.  Do you know if it is paintable (must keep the momma happy)?



    For my project, though, since I am using 1 1/4" black steel pipe and I have 2" steel pipe scrap, I will use the 2" for the sleeve, use the non-urethane foam for insulation (its flexible) and then seal the ends with fire caulk.  For all who responded, what do you think about this idea?



    I am thinking that to use the fibreglass around the run-out, will allow mice to eat there way in - they seem to love the stuff.  Using PVC as a sleeve, runs counter to my thoughts on heat transfer and subsequent melting of the PVC when the run-out gets hot.



    I do have another question about this through-the-wall thing.  Along with all of the additional work I am doing, I am also adding copper lines for the eventual addition of and upgrade too, a Paul vacuum system.  That said, does anyone see any potential issue with running a vacuum line along side the run-out, through the sleeve?  I keep thinking of the older cars that would stall when it was hot because the fuel line would vapor-lock and stop the flow of gasoline into the carb.  In my minds eye, I see the run-out getting very hot and the heat transferred into the copper line.  But, since the line is a vacuum line any heat that does transfer into it would simply get sucked into the vacuum pump, or well, I like the idea of using a vacuum tank between the pump and manifold(s) for the protection of the pump.  Am I over thinking this??



    One more thing, since I posted this question, I have done almost nothing with my install except finish the near-boiler piping.  I will post pix soon for a professional opinion of the layout.  Glad it's not cold yet.....



    Thank you everyone,

    Mike
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Yea it is

    pretty cool stuff.  It's nice when it fits the use you have for it.  If you use it on a steam pipe the pipe must be insulated first, otherwise it will just distort and melt, so I don't know about those risers you were talking about.  Wherever you have risers through a room, those were put there for a reason, to help heat the room.  So you might not want to insulate them. I have a one and a half inch main running through the basement bathroom, which is covered with half inch glass fiber and PVC jacketing.  It makes a good towel warmer.  I posted my experiences using Glass fiber pipe wrap and PVC fitting covers.  http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/137178/Insulation  There are some photo's and a couple through foundation examples.  Your wife will be happy to know that this PVC is available in many colors.  Color samples are posted in the insulation thread. 

    My basement is all finished with drywall and plaster etc.  The mains run through all the partitions.  In the past, when the pipes were bare, they were constantly expanding and contracting, wearing away at the plaster.  Now with one inch of glass fiber and chimney mortar around the insulation, the steam pipe is allowed to expand and contract (inside the insulation).  I received two benefits from this method.  (1) The steam pipe is allowed to expand and contract with the cycle of the boiler, and doesn't bother my plaster.  (2) The expansion and contraction is silent.

    Whatever you use through the foundation, the expansion and contraction is going to create a hole for the mice.  Maybe some quarter inch screen might be necesary.  Lets see if they can knaw that. 
  • Luv'nsteam
    Luv'nsteam Member Posts: 272
    PVC jacket on the risers

    The risers in my home only deliver steam up and condensate down.  All rooms have at least one radiator, so I am not concerned about loosing heat for the rooms.  And of course, if I jacket them, it will be over 1" of fibreglass tube insulation.  And I too would like to see a mouse gnaw through steel wool!  : )



    Thanks again,

    Mike



    P.S. Thanks for the link on the PVC, I will definitely check it out!
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    I do not know about mice, but squirrels...

    My house has gable vents that had a metal screen inside to keep the bugs out. Coarse screen, about 1/4 inch squares. Squirrels ran along a nearby telephone line and jumped to the bent and gnawed their way inside my roof. It was a pain to get them out. I had to replace the vents with ones that had tougher screen inside, and the louvers were steel instead of plastic. I also had the telephone company re-route the telephone line far away (they actually went to a different pole). So maybe steel wool is mouse proof, but I bet it is not squirrel proof.
  • Polycarp
    Polycarp Member Posts: 135
    Your plan...

    ... sounds like it would work to me. Just a couple of thoughts:



    - One of the reasons to jacket is to protect your pipe and your insulation. If you insulate, a PVC jacket should have no problem with the heat.



    - The 2" scrap won't give you much room to insulate and is going to create one hell of a thermal bridge to the foundation wall. The little gap of insulation will help, but if you use metal, and metal that small, you will be essentially creating a thermal siphon on your system. That is another advantage of PVC, it doesn't conduct heat like metal. We're talking about a pretty short length of jacket here, just go ahead and buy a short scrap of PVC that leaves room for plenty of insulation.



    - There's no reason the two pipes have to go through the same jacket. You're already dealing with pretty limited space here. Having them that tight is just asking for them to rub. (As they heat and cool, they are going to move.) It seems like it would make a lot more sense to run them through separate jackets and take some risk out of it.
  • Luv'nsteam
    Luv'nsteam Member Posts: 272
    Good points, all

    Polycarp.  I hadn't considered the rubbing from thermal expansion and subsequent cooling contraction. If I am going to use a larger, PVC sleeve (3" or 4"?) to allow more insulation and further prevent heat transfer, I think I will have sufficient room to run the copper line through the same sleeve and still maintain a safe distance between the copper and steel to avoid thermal rubbing. 



    I am also thinking that using one sleeve large enough to properly insulate the run-out (1" thick or more) will provide room for the copper vac line, as well as, remove the need for an additional sleeve making my install a little easier and having one less opening for mice.  Would you agree?



    Thank you,

    Mike
  • Polycarp
    Polycarp Member Posts: 135
    PVC

    I would think that 3" should be fine, and at that size you can put both pipes in together. However, 4" wouldn't be a bad idea. It would give you a little more insulation. It would also leave you more room for future changes .. maybe you need a bigger pipe in the future, maybe you want to run some wire, etc. It's such a small incremental cost, I think it is worth it.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    I would not run wire through that.

    I am not a heating professional, but in a past life I did design electronic circuitry for military applications. These had to operate from -55C to +85C while surviving severe vibration and physical shock tests I will not bore you with (MIL-E-5400-H).



    In those days, about the only wire you could use when hot was wire insulated with fiberglass braid. Some of the better plastic insulated wire would survive the temperature, but not when coupled with the vibration when the plastic would flow and get too thin to insulate properly.



    If you need to run electrical wiring, I suggest considering using a separate conduit from one with moving (expansion and contraction) steam pipes. I do not know electrical codes, but they may have something to say about this.
  • Luv'nsteam
    Luv'nsteam Member Posts: 272
    I have planned from the

    Beginning to have a separate conduit for wire.  The area that will be served by the rad I am installing currently has no heat, no a/c and no electricity.  Indeed, it is an enclosed front-side porch that is becoming the wife's sitting room,  The floor will be insulated after heat and electricity is run through the joists and then covered with edges sealed by a product I think is called Armorflex.  Basically, it is thick & rigid foam with an additional vapor barrier on the bottom to keep out moisture. 



    Thank you,

    Mike
  • Polycarp
    Polycarp Member Posts: 135
    electrical

    That's a good point.  I had envisioned the wire going through a separate, small conduit inside the jacket.  Creating a hole in the insulation for conduit would be much easier than creating a new hole in the foundation.  
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