Is the extra cost really worth it?

justwondering

I am looking to buy a modular home that has baseboard hot water already installed in the house.  I need a boiler and boiler mate.  I have gotten quotes back and there tends to be a significant difference in the prices - system 2000 to a model like a weil maclein.  Can the fuel savings really be justified by the system 2000 or is it just hype.  We live in northern Maine so oil prices are even higher. I have read alot about both of them but if somebody can give me a little insight it might help. 

Greg Maxwell

Extra cost

The answer is no. It used to be that System 2000 had something other boiler manufacturers did not. That isnt the case any longer. I am in southern Maine, and have worked for a very reputable supplier for a long time. We recommend cold start boilers, such as the Biasi B10 series. They are distributed by a man who lives in Maine, and has been a leader in our industry for years. Very popular, affordable, and very efficient. If you want more efficiency, use a Honeywell AQ251 controller, which will give you outdoor reset.

You will definately see fuel savings with this kind of system.

Robert O'Brien

What model?

Of course a higher eff system makes sense. Weil McLain makes many models,the Gold is quite inferior to the System 2000 eff wise. A Weil  Mc Lain Ultra Oil w/ reset control would be pretty close. Which did you have in mind?

lchmb

two pennies..

Here's some additional thoughts, heat loss. Make sure one is done so that whatever system you opt to have installed is sized for what you need. Not for you and your neighbor. Another thing, the system is only as good as the person who service's it. Make sure whoever you have your yearly work done by is comfortable with what you opt install..

almost forgot, part's. Are they available in an emergency?

STEVEusaPA

I'm just not a fan of

cold start w/ an indirect. My (going on) 3 year experiment with my Burnham MPO, Smart 60, with Tekmar 374, works great.  Summer time, with the burner firing for domestic hot water only, the boiler maintains a state of 'warm start'.  Runs clean, barely needs its annual cleaning.  I had scortched hot air.   I installed this system along with my home remodeling (2 baseboard loops, 4 radiant loops).  I almost doubled my square footage, added DHW, insulated, insulated, insulated, and only use about 10% more oil.  I don't think cold start ever saves enough money on oil to justify it's use.

Jason_13

Cold Start

I like cold start. I have been installing cold start boilers with indirects since mid 80's. No problems.

The MPO-IQ is a good boiler. It is also 3 pass, allows 100f return water temperature, pressure fired combustion area, plug in modules for LWCO, ODR etc.

It also offers troubleshooting/service codes.

Jean-David Beyer

Homeowner.

As a homeowner with an indirect-fired hot water heater and a gas-fired cold-start mod-con boiler, I am curious what the advantage of running this warm-start (or whatever the opposite of cold-start) is. (I am not proposing to change it in any case.) In the summertime, the boiler only fires twice or three times a day for 10 minutes or less each time. What benefit could occur by firing more often to keep the boiler warm or hot all the rest of the time?



In my case, the heat exchanger, which is essentially the entire boiler, is an aluminum casting that is not insulated. It is inside the sealed boiler box, so it preheats the combustion air slightly. The boiler box is not insulated either. When it is heating, if there is no call for heat, the boiler tends to stop firing.



I have read about the undesirability of running an oil-fired boiler cold start, and I am not knowledgable enough to know if that is a bad idea or not; it could be. But gas? Or were you confining your remarks to oil?

Robert O'Brien

There are

oil boilers that don't handle cold start well. Get rid of them and in no case install a new one!  Why on earth would you burn a  fossil fuel that is in finite quantities and costs$4/gal to keep a boiler warm when not needed?

STEVEusaPA

clarifications--

In referring to cold-start, I was speaking of oil fired.  "Warm start", if I'm not mistaken is a term coined by Mr George Lanthier.  In my case, warm start is not the opposite of cold start.  The controls arent maintaining a high temperature. Much like you JDB, my oil fired boiler, in the summer, only fires 2 or 3  10 minute cycles a day (Burnham MPO), and they coincide with showers (wife am, me pm, and maybe once during the day).  So I'm not wasting any oil.  I think your set-up (JDB) is fine.  The MPO has more water content, then your mod-con, so I don't want it to cool completely.  Also, because it's in my own home, I've been doing my own experimenting over the last 3 years and found it to work fine.  Also, using ULSD, I check my combustion efficiency before and after cleaning, runs really clean, and shows only slight, if any improvement (trying to see if I can clean boiler, every 2 years).  My biggest reason to not like cold start, as Mr. O'Brien said is trying to clean/maintain the boilers that don't handle it well. I usually try to do annual cleanings on those in late October so they're ready to run as efficiently as possible through the winter.   (btw, GREAT JOB on your charity work with 'Oil Heat Cares'.  I saw your article in ICM, or Oil & Energy, very nice),

Jean-David Beyer

You confused me.

"GREAT JOB on your charity work with 'Oil Heat Cares'."



That cannot be me. I have done some charity work related to helping the homeless, and mad a contribution to a woman who could not afford her boiler repairs (replacement? But I certainly am not active with oil heat cares. Credit where credit is due, but in this case, it is not due to me.

STEVEusaPA

Sorry

The kudo's are for Mr. O'Brien.

Ex Maine Doug

Cold start?

My two Biasi boilers are dirty enough as "hot" start let alone cold start.  My low temp limit is 140 degrees.  When I shut down the system while I am away the cold start is not pretty.  The Riello burners and Biasi's get cleaned every year and are quite dirty. I attribute this to current oil and lack of really skilled techs.

System is Pri/Sec with VSI floor loop that is on constant circulation with outdoor reset, three panel rad circuits and an E44 Ergomax in series with the Primary loop for DHW and increase boiler water content. An early version dual boiler Tekmar control runs the boilers. It has a few cheats added to delay the premature second boiler start, a shortcoming of the Tekmar control.

At the moment the Primary loop runs full time. So when a Biasi fires, the prepurge starts the boiler circ and feeds hot primary loop water to the boiler so it is heated until the burner actually starts.  I would like to add circuitry to turn off the VSI with a stat and then change the Primary circuit control to turn off when nothing needs heat. Thus if all four heating loops and DWH are satisified, standby losses could be reduced and boiler cycles decreased.

The Biasi's have reduced oil consumption by about 40% from the steamer. Mostly one of the little 90K units handles the building (an old bank) until the huge clawfoot tub is filled and all the loops want heat input. The E44 produces lot's of hot water and I have not had to clean the coils yet.   With better control logic and better burner set up I think further improvements can be made.

Rich P_3

System 2000

Is it worth it???

System 2000 is quiet!!

It is made in New Jersey by Americans....

It is also a package, IE easy to install less likely for installer error!!

My 2 cents

Rich P.

Rich P_3

System 2000

Is it worth it???

System 2000 is quiet!!

It is made in New Jersey by Americans....

It is also a package, IE easy to install less likely for installer error!!

My 2 cents

Rich P.

Jason_13

Cold Start Oil Boiler

All new oil boilers will handle cold start well. There should be nothing to clean annually but a need to check the safety's. Maybe clean (Brush/Vacuum) every other or every third year.

How do you maintain some kind of temp in the MPO? The aquastat in the manifold is not going to sense the water temp in the boiler accurately unless water is moving.

Robert O'Brien

Steve

Thanks! We are on the same page with cold start just using different nomenclature

Steamhead

I believe

the aquastat setup was changed on the newer MPO-IQ series.

Jason_13

MPO-IQ

Steamhead you are correct but I was referring to STEVEusaPA's post to his 3 year old MPO not the new units. The new ones sense water temp in the boiler itself.

Still no need to maintain temperature.