Burnham V8 Gas gun conversion

ChrisJ

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me if doing a gas gun conversion on a V8 series boiler is a good idea or not.



I have asked one contractor who said he could do it but he would recommend having a new boiler installed instead.  The boiler is a V83 which was installed in 2001 and had the block replaced in 2006.  Hopefully the replacement block won't have the same problem.



Thanks,



Chris J.

Steamhead

Is this

a steam system? 

ChrisJ

Yes it is.

It most certainly is.  Its a V83 configured for single pipe steam.  I believe the model becomes V83-S in this case.

Steamhead

First thing to do

is make sure there are no leaks in the system. This includes bad vents, leaks at valve packings etc. Leaks mean fresh water must be added frequently and that eats up boilers.



As far as a gas gun- it can be done, and would probably work well. But Burnham hasn't sanctioned it (yet?).

ChrisJ

No leaks here

All leaks are repaired and all steam vents are working correctly.



I am still worried about the V8 block though.  I know mine was replaced in 2006 by the original owner but I do not know why.  We found a leaky steam pipe and some bad vents and replaced them.



Are there precautions I can take to ensure my block does not crack?  Should I use Sizzle in the boiler every few years to remove scale build up?  Will a good water filter help any?

I suppose I'm worried because I've read about hot water guys having they're V8 blocks crack and here I am running hotter, and adding more water no matter what due to draining sediment once a week.

Steamhead

Since you've fixed the leaks

and are only replacing the blow-down water, you should be OK. But how much blow-down does your boiler need to run clear?



I prefer not to use chemicals in boilers unless the water quality shows a need for them. On most residential jobs, no chemicals are needed.

ChrisJ

blowdown

I need to drain around 8 to 12 ounces to get it to run clear after a week or so.  That comes to around 5 gallons a year not including any evaporation or steam that sneaks past the air vents each time she fires up.



Should I be draining any lower points occasionally or is the float housing all that is needed?

crash2009

Sounds like

 you suspect that there is a lot of sediment in your system.  You have seen what comes out of the LWCO.  The low spots of the system pipes are likely just as dirty, perhaps more.  The usual problem is that drain valves are not always installed where you need them.  Maybe you will get lucky, maybe you won't.  Can you post a couple pictures of your setup?  Maybe we can help you clean it or advise you on adding a couple valves to make it easy to clean.

crash2009

I recieved your e-mail Chris

 and the hyperlink to the photo.  Hope you don't mind, I posted the photo here to make it easier for us to help.  Nice looking setup, I'll bet it runs pretty good.  Need more photo's of the other 3 sides of the boiler, down low showing the wet returns and what the 2 valves look like.



Also need a pic of the 2 valves around the back of the boiler.  You say one is 3" comes straight out and down, that is likely the skimmer.  The other one is likely the boiler drain valve.



If this picture is recent you need to install some insulation on the mains.  Insulation will reduce the heat in the cellar and send more upstairs where you want it.  Also, insulation makes your steam system work better.  



What kind of pressure controller do you have?  Pressuretrol or Vaporstat?

Al Letellier_21

burnham conversion

You had better check before you leap. In a survey done recently,in a check of all major manufacurers of boilers in the US, BUrnham is the only one that said absolutely NOT about installing a gas conversion burner in their oil fired boilers. Unit is not UL listed for gas conversion and if anything were to go wrong,  no warrantee or responsibility on Burnham's part.....but the local gas companies have been doing it for years.....so??????

Rod

Insulate your Steam Mains

Hi- As Crash mentioned, having insulation on your steam pipes is a BIG benefit!

My mains were insulated but not my boiler piping- header, risers etc. When I did insulate them I was surprised at the difference insulating just that small section of piping made and I no longer have a "tropical" basement. It's a big savings getting the heat to the rooms where you want it rather than keeping the basement hot. Here's a good article of Dan's on insulating your steam pipes:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/300/Why-you-should-insulate-steam-pipes

This is a good source for insulation suggested by Gerry Gill.

http://store03.prostores.com/servlet/buyinsulationproducts/StoreFront

Use a minimum of 1 inch insulation on your steam pipes.

- Rod

Rod

Liability?

Hi Al- With your experience dealing with the insurance companies, maybe you can answer a question I have always wanted to ask. I can see where a boiler company could deny a warrantee claim if you were using an burner on their boiler that was not approved by them.  What I'm wondering is whether if you were using a UL listed burner, installed to code, but not "boiler company approved", would that in any way affect your general fire / liability insurance on your home?  Could they deny a claim? Not for the boiler but say for something major, like the house burned down. As you say the gas company does them and there are still a lot of old coal boiler conversions going. Have you ever heard of an issue in this area?

- Rod

Al Letellier_21

gas conversions

Rod, thank God I have not seen any issues but it does relate to code issues and is something I would have to report if found. I am not an adjuster or a lawyer, so I don't know how it would shake out, but know this.......every manufacturer that I polled regarding this matter (except Burnham) said they had no issues with converting their oil rated boilers to gas as far as warrantee is concerned, but also said its your responsibility to use UL listed equipment no matter what you are doing in this business, but they would not accept any responsibility for your actions in the field. Most residential oil boilers are UL listed as oil fired equipment. It is very costly to get a UL listing of anything these days, and all the manufacturers recommended using their gas rated boilers. So......it's your responsibility anyway...you sell it  and you install it, you own it as far as liability is concerned. I have personally installed many Riello gas burners in Weil Boilers, especially steamers, with no issues to date and with Weil's asssurance that any warrantee as far as the boiler block is concerned, would be covered as long as the installation was properly done.

I would strongly recommend that any of you consult you insurance carrier and your attorney to get a ruling on this....sooner or later this issue will rear its ugly head and someone is going to pay. I hope it isn't any of you.

Hope that answers your question.

Rod

Liability Area

Al - Thanks for the reply. It seems to be one of those gray areas in which you don't find out the answer until you have a claim. I'll run it past my insurance guy and see what they say.

- Rod

Al Letellier_21

conversion burners

You are unfortunately correct. Here in Maine where we have a great licensing program and a State Board for information and enforcement, we were told not to install gas burners in UL listed equipment as the total package was not UL listed. Apparently that has changed as long as the manufacturer says its OK to do. Haven't heard anything different so that's the basis of my understanding that we can do it in Maine with the approval of the manufacturer.

I always looked at it as a BTU is a BTU no matter what the fuel source and that I had the liability anyway because I did the work. But when it comes to insurance and lawyers, that's a whole new ballgame. Just make sure you follow the code to the letter and photograph and document all your work....who knows how many hands will touch that equipment after you do and in some states like Maine, there may be a long statute of limitation on workmanship so you could be on the hook for a long time.

Steamhead

All oil and power gas burners

sold in America that I know of, are UL listed for conversion and upgrade applications as well as OEM applications. I believe they have to be to meet the various NFPA codes. If in doubt, check the I&O manuals that come with the burners. 

ChrisJ

Thanks

Thanks for the response crash.  I agree 100% on insulating the mains.  I plan on insulating them before the fall.

I will try to get some pictures of the other valves tonight.  The control is a Honeywell Pressuretrol.



I have to ask, the wet return comes up around 2 feet off of the ground as shown in the picture on the right side before returning back to the boiler.  Is this to keep sediment from returning to the boiler?

Rod

Hartford Loop?

Hi Chris- it sounds as though you are referring to what is called the "Hartford Loop".

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/291/What-you-should-know-about-Hartford-Loops

- Rod

ChrisJ

Ah you are right!

Rod,  I did not realize that was one of the main parts of the Hartford loop!

If I am understanding correctly, This is so if one of the returns leaks the boiler will not empty past that point?



And the vertical pipe connecting the steam side to the return simply ensures the pressure is the same on both ends so water does not get pushed out of the bottom of the boiler?

Rod

Hartford Loop

The Hartford Loop dates back to the era when boilers were coal fired. If the return lines sprung a leak, all the water would drain out of the boiler and the boiler would then get red hot. If any water was then added it would immediately flash to steam, blowing up the boiler! With a modern on and off burner, along with safety devices like the low water cutoff, one might say that the Hartford Loop is really no long needed, however, you can't have too many safety devices and it is written into a lot of the boiler codes and manufacturer's installation instructions so it's a pretty good idea to still have a Hartford Loop.

Here's an interesting article on boiler explosions.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/120/Boiler-Explosions/974/Explosion-Reports-from-the-early-1930s

 It gives you a whole new respect for boiler safety devices! Keep in mind boilers aren't just for making steam.  Most homes have at least one boiler though it is usually referred to as the hot water tank.

- Rod

ChrisJ

Here are the pictures

Here are the pictures.

I see two ways to drain the bottom of the boiler?  And I guess a valve to drain garbage out of the wet return?

Rod

Boiler Drains

Yes, those are the drain valves you have. I don't know if you have young kids or not but if so it's a good idea to cap the drain valves (see attached picture) and remove the handle from the skim valve as an extra precaution so that young hands don't cause a serious accident. Home Depot has hose bib caps in their Garden Dept.

Do you have main vents at the end of each steam main or on each return line? I didn't see them in the pictures.

- Rod

crash2009

Yes

three drains.  Two for the boiler and one for the wet return.  Before you open any of them, go down to the hardware store and get 3 caps.  Sometimes, when you open those drain valves, they will not close completely. Get the caps just in case they won't close again.  The caps have a rubber seal inside them and will close the drain if it won't close itself.  If one won't close, you will likely have to call the plumber.  Let us know when you have picked up the caps.



So now you know how to get the water out.  The next step is to identify how to get water in.  Normally there is only one way, and that is to bypass the water feeder.  The second way is to hook up a garden hose from the spigot outside or from the washing machine in the basement.

It depends on how far you think you need to go but.....You can remove a main vent, install a garden hose fitting in the main vent hole, hook up a garden hose to it, turn the water on and flush it out through the drains.  I have also heard some guys remove the safety valve and flush it out through there too. 



HERE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART.  Flush when the boiler is cold.  After flushing, make sure you boil the water for at least 15 minutes to purify the water.

Next winter, you will be able to drain a cup or two from each of your 3 drains to keep it clean and you wont have to flush ever again.

STEAM DOCTOR

draining

I don't really think that draining a cup or two will do any good at all. From my experience, the only way to clean a boiler via draining is by very "thoroughly" draining the boiler. I would assume that every pro has his method which he proffers. What I find to be effective is to fill the boiler to the header and drain completely. Repeat two or three times. Next step is to drain the boiler and turn on the manual water supply while the boiler drain is open. Repeat two or three times. If needed the pressure relief valve can be removed and a hose can be hooked up to the 3/4" tapping using appropriate fittings. Then with the boiler empty and the drain open power wash the boiler with house pressure. I recommend at least a thorough cleaning before each heating season. The boiler itself does not need to be drained during the heating season. The LWCO should be drained once a week. As crash stated, after you finish filling the boiler turn up the thermostat and and run the boiler for 15 minutes.

PS as crash stated make sure boiler is cold before starting

ChrisJ

No small kids yet.

We plan on having some in the neat future though and I like the ideas of capping the valves.

My setup has a button on the autofeed to add water manually as well as a ballvalve that bypasses it.

There are two main vents, one on each side of the house.  One is almost new and the other has to go in the garbage before the fall because it looks about 30 years old and doesn't vent anything.



How dangerous is adding water to this boiler?  What I mean by that is Burnham says anyting over 3 gallons a year is considered excessive and may cause damage to the boiler.  If I am always draining the LWC as well as the other valves combined with any evaporation via the steam vents that 3 gallons won't go far.  I had mentioned this concern earlier in the thread.  I don't see ANY leaks yet I am loosing a small amount of water simply keeping my domestic hot water going right now.  I am still thinking Burnhams 3 gallon a year statement is for hot water systems but cannot get confirmation on this.



Is makeup water even dangerous to the boiler if its brought to a boil immediately?  I have no problem maintaing the system, infact I look forward to it almost like a hobby.  But I don't want to do more bad than good.



On another topic my understanding is the autofill is only for emergancys and will not actually maintain the proper water level?  Seems kind of useless if this is true.  Infact if that is true I feel its more of a hazard than anything.  When I first moved in the boiler ended up flooded becausee of the autofill and a clogged wet return.  Had I been adding the water manually I wouldve noticed something wrong immediately as I would have wondered why I ran low on water in only an hour.



Sorry for all of the quesitons, especially if they seem kind of dumb.  I just want to know what I am doing.  To me its important to not only know what to do, but understand why I am doing it.

Rod

Boiler Water

Hi Chris- There is no thing as dumb question. Asking questions is how we all learn!

On the boiler water- Water itself does not hurt the boiler. You can add as much as you want as long as you immediately bring the boiler water to a boil.  It is the dissolved oxygen in the water which can be very corrosive. Heating the water to the boiling point removes the dissolved oxygen from the water so when ever you add water to the boiler you should then fire the burner to the point where the water boils. What Burnham is says relates to leak and makeup water added by the automatic water feeder.  The problem comes when boiler or system starts to leak either a water leak or a small steam leak and the homeowner thinks," No big deal, I don't need to worry about the leak as I have an automatic water feeder that will add makeup water to the boiler!"  Overtime the dissolved oxygen in the non heated makeup water eats away at the inside of the boiler and causes a pin hole leak. Worse yet is the fact that an automatic water feeder will hide the fact that a leak exists. That's why it is best if you are going to rely on an automatic water feeder use the type that records (like a Hydrolevel VXT)  just how much water is being added to the boiler. (Since you are manually filling the boiler (via the feeder) this shouldn't be a problem.)



I'm not quite sure what you mean that you are losing water with the domestic Hot Water. If you are using the boiler to heat domestic hot water. The domestic hot water is a closed system.  There is a coiled pipe in your boiler which is immersed in the boiler water. Domestic cold water comes into the pipe coil where it is heated by the boiler water and then exits the boiler as hot water for showers etc. There is a mixing valve (anti scald)  on the exit line which mixes in cold water so the the exit water isn't too hot when it runs to your shower or Hot Water tap. Depending on the make/model boiler, when using the boiler in the summer  just for hot water (not steam heating) , it is sometimes beneficial to slightly raise the boiler water level (in the sight glass) so that it completely covers the coil. (Some coils are only partially covered by the boiler water)  There should be an Aquastat which is the control operates the boiler when you are using it just for making hot water - not steam. I checked you pictures and I labeled what i think is an Aquastay ( see attached picture) though due to the camera angle I'm not positive.



Main Vents- You'll  need to fix your main vents. You can't have too much main venting and good main venting really improves the operation and efficiency of your system.



You might want to get a copy of Dan's steam book "We Got Steam Heat" as it answers these questions much better than we ever could plus has answers to questions you probably haven't thought about yet.! It's written for the homeowner new to steam and is  easy humorous reading. A few evenings of reading will put you light years ahead in your knowledge of domestic steam systems. Here's a link to the book:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Books/5/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence

- Rod

STEAM DOCTOR

dumb question

The only dumb question is the one not asked.Asking a question just means that you have the knowledge that there is more information out there and the humility to seek that info from the the more experienced and knowledgeable. I am with Rod 100% on the hydro-level. Besides for helping to keep track of water feeding it also allows you to adjust the amount of feed water. The standard water feeder only feeds to the safe operating level (bottom of the water glass), not the efficient operating level(middle of glass). The hydro-level is adjustable. In my opinion it should be illegal to manufacture, sell or install any other water feeder. 

ChrisJ

losing water

Rod,

What I mean by losing water is I have to add water every once in a while to the boiler even though it never makes steam.  Every 2 weeks or so I bring it back up maybe 1 inch in the sight glass.



The aquastat is currently set to 185F with 10deg differential.  I originally had it cranked up to 190F after reading the manual to the boiler but then found a note saying I could raise the water level in the summer by 1 inch.  After this I dropped the temp to 185F and still have plenty of hot water.



The only thing I can guess is over time the water is simply evaporating and leaking out of all of the air vents.  I don't see a single drop leaking from the wet return or the boiler.  I also raised the water level until the sight glass was full and checked the boiler for leaks and found nothing.

In regards to the book recommendation I had plans to buy "the lost art of steam heat"  Is this much different than "we have steam heat" ?

crash2009

If you are adding water you have a leak

  Copper turns color when it leaks, or when its leaked on, turquoise.  The last time I looked for leaks here, I shut the boiler down at night, and the leak showed itself in the morning, as a puddle.  

ChrisJ

Then I don't know

I've kept an eye on all joints in the wet return and have watched the boiler closely.

I have had the boiler shut down completely over night twice since May and have never found a drop anywhere.  The only possibility I can think of is I have stone\dirt under the new part of the wet return and it has been damp since April right around when it was installed.  Problem is since we just moved in I don't know if its normally damp there or not.  The pipe is clean though it is only a month old.



I will try to figure out a way to check for sure to see if that elbow\pipe is leaking.  Perhaps I can dig out under it and put some plastic and cardboard down.

Rod

Possible Leak?

It sounds as though you may very well have a tiny leak somewhere. Check your wet returns below the boiler waterline level. Since you have basement floor that remains damp, I would consider raising the piping up so it isn't in constant contact with the ground.  You could just dig it out a bit and put some 1/4 inch thick plastic blocks under the piping to hold it slightly off the ground so that air can get under it and keep dry.   You can get pieces of plastic quite cheaply from McMaster Carr  http://www.mcmaster.com/  (It's a great hardware site for all types items). I did raised a line in the past by cutting up an old 1/4 thick kitchen plastic cutting board of my wife's into 3"x3" squares to use as blocking.  In a lot of older houses with unfinished (non concrete) floors, there is coal ash (from the coal furnace days)  mixed in with the gravel/dirt. Coal ash turns the damp to a strong acid solution which will then eat through copper lines quite quickly.  We had a new copper line less than a year old which developed pin hole leaks because of this. 



I would recommend you read "We Got Steam Heat !" first as it is a good introduction to steam heating, It has a lot of vocabulary and steam definitions which will then help you understand "The Lost Art of Steam" much easier.  I did it backwards and read "The Lost Art.." first and found I constantly had to refer to "We Got .." for definitions etc and realized it would have been much easier to start with "We got..." 

While I think of it you might also want to look at Gerry Gill's Website

http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/

Gerry is a very experienced steampro in the Cleveland area and his website has lot of great information on steam heating. Pay particular attention to the information on main venting as Gerry and Steve are experts on this.

- Rod

crash2009

caps?

Go get those caps that Rod and I told you about.  You might have a slow drip from one of the 3 drains.  If you cap them, that's 3 places you can eliminate as possibility's.  The sight glass could be dripping a bit too.  The reason I suggested shutting it down for awhile is that some leaks dont show until the pipe gets cold.  The drip evaporates, due to the heat, before the drip shows on the floor.

ChrisJ

makes sense

Makes sense Crash. Though I am hesitant to shut down because I love my hot showers!. The hot water coil has been a love hate relationship. The coil cannot handle a high GPM, but it can produce unlimited water for my shower .



I dug everything out from under the month old wet return and am going to keep a close eye on it. The dirt and stones under it are wet so I am hoping that is the source.



I will also pick up the caps as suggested.

crash2009

Test your radiator vents

If you are getting steam coming out of your vents, you likely need to lower your pressure and replace or repair, your vents. I just noticed something while looking at your photo's.  pic DSC00041and DSC00137, The air vent is supposed to be exactly verticle.  DSC00138 appears to be upside down.  Are you getting any water spots on those new floors? Here is a little test for you.  remove one of the radiator vents.  turn it to the left to remove.  hold it exactly verticle.  put it in your mouth, like a smoking pipe.  and blow.  You should hear air coming out.  Now turn it upside down, holding exactly verticle, and blow again. you should not be able to blow through it when upside down.  If you can blow through it while upside down, it is stuck open.  This same test works on main vents too.       

ChrisJ

3 vents shown work fine

The one near the stairs is right side up and working fine.  In fact its doing double duty as that just happens to be where a lot of the air from the main with the stuck vent gets pushed out.



The other two are not perfectly vertical but are working right.  At one point I'll probably throw some teflon tape on them and reinstall them properly.

Believe it or not but those floors are far from new.  They have not been refinished for many years or at least thats what the neighbors tell me.  They look VERY good for their age but not perfect of course.