Armor for vacuum line

Luv'nsteam

Amongst much other steam pipe work, I am installing vacuum lines to eventually convert my vapor, one-pipe steam system into a Paul-vacuum system.  To that end, I am running Viega (sp?) water line from each radiator into the basement to a manifold near the boiler (Dan suggested 1/4" PEX, but I was unable to purchase it locally the day I needed it). 



Because the lines will be visible between each floor at five locations (five risers) and because the line is not indestructible, I want to protect it from damage as well as, make it esthetically pleasing or at least, not unsightly (this is a must to keep the wife happy).  The line is about 1/4" OD and very flexible. 



Any suggestions on what or how to cover the line to achieve the desired results?



Thank you,

Mike

ed wallace

armor for vacumn lines

Why not just use 1/4 or 3/8 in copper tubing ?

Luv'nsteam

Cost!

: )



Thank you,

Mike

ed wallace

armor for vacumn line

I would be concerned that the pex would not hold up to steam or condensate getting into the vacumn line and melting it

Luv'nsteam

Steam vs. plastic or PEX

That is a consideration for sure and considering that I have run the line through floors & ceilings, if there is an issue, it's gonna suck to replace!  Hopefully, the Hoffman #3 will work correctly and close before the steam melts anything. 



It is interesting to note that, there are 3/8" galvanized pipes near each radiator that have been cut flush with the floor.  There is also a mercury pot (can be seen on page 257, gold cover edition, of TLAOSH) in my basement, all now disconnected and all were part of an early Train vapor system.  If the system works well enough, as I believe it will, and there is an issue down the road, then I will cough up the money for a better alternative to the line I am installing. 





I am already WAY over budget and still need another grand or so worth of parts to complete this "little" project.  However, it has been challenging & fun and assembling steam pipe is like a jig saw puzzle with no photo to take ques from.  I would do it again in a heart beat, no questions!  : )



Thank you,



Mike

Luv'nsteam

Armor idea

I was just looking on Home Depot's site at 1/2" metal conduit.  It is pretty cheap at $2.18 for a ten foot section and it bends easy enough to shape.  My question would be attaching it to the floor.  In the ceiling end, I can simply push it slightly into the drywall, I am just not sure how to fix the bottom to the floor.  Anybody have any suggestions?



Thanks,

Mike

ed wallace

Armor for vacuum line

have you thought about using 1/4 aluminium tubing that is normally used as pilot light tubing? I would really like to pick your brain on what you are doing I have a customer who wants to retro fit an old paul vacumn system

Charlie from wmass

Just my two cents here

By the time you get done messing with conduit and sleeving the pipe why not reconsider copper? No melting with copper either. The cheap solution is often very expensive.

Luv'nsteam

Hummmm,

When you put it that way, Charlie, it gives me pause.  Would you use copper water line, refrigerant line or another grade of copper?  I suppose the prudent thing for me to do is re-evaluate the labor and cost of each choice.  I will let you know what I am going to do and why.  In the meant time. if any readers have any other ideas, please share them.



Also, if I use copper, since it can take the heat, I could run the copper against the steam pipe.  Since the pump will come on when the system is cold, only cool air would get sucked through the line.  Dan suggested a max vacuum of 5", so I hope to find a 120 volt vacuum-operated switch to turn the pump off when the appropriate vacuum is reached.  The Hoffman #3 should close when the steam gets to it, so no steam should reach the lines.  However, in the event the #3 fails open and steam gets to the pump, what kind of damage might I encounter or is there any safety devices I could place between pump and manifold (all vacuum lines will run to a manifold and the manifold will be hooked to the pump)? 





Thank you,

Mike

Luv'nsteam

Ed, I replied to your

email yesterday.  Check your inbox - I am willing to talk with you.  As for the aluminum, I had not considered it, but after Charlie's suggestion, I may.....



Thanks,

Mike

clammy

protecting your vaume pump

I have seen 1 or 2 Paul systems the where fairly intact but it has been a while ,if i remember correctly they would install a small radiator trap like a Hoffman 17c on the outlet of the vacuum line  manifold before the vacuum pump and have the vacuum switch mounted on the outlet of the trap .I would also enlarge trap outlet from say  1/2  to 2 inch stand pipe with maybe a drain set up at its bottom to remove and build up of condensate  and  to create more area to help dissipate any flash steam that may form when the trap opens which will damage your vacuum pump .Just a quick thought  i really do not think i would even think of using pex or any plastic on any steam system ,i would use copper acr tubing 1/4 inch od if that cost is hurting you it is nothing compared to a vacume pump ? No peace and good luck clammy

Steamhead

I'd use a bigger trap

MEPCO 1E or Barnes & Jones 122. The 17C wouldn't have the throughput for a main venting line. 

Rod

Plastic Vacuum Line

Hi- On the subject of vacuum tubing for a Paul System you might want to look into plastic tubing like either polysulfone or polypropylene tubing.  Polysulfone will take a much higher temperature (300+ F) but is not that common, so prices I would think maybe higher than they should be.  As a plastic it is coming more and more into use as it is about the best high temperature plastic available for HW and steam applications. Watts makes polysulfone fittings.



Polypropylene tubing might be your best bet as it is very common and is used for hot fluids and vacuum hose. I don’t have much experience using it for hot fluids but have used it a lot for vacuum hosing which when vacuum forming plastic parts can get pretty hot.

 Temperature wise you’ll see it rated for temp around 180 degrees. This is the working temperature under pressure -  usually 100 to 200 psi.  Polypropylene tubing will take up to 250 degrees F and therefore should not be a problems when using it for vacuum line /light pressure on a steam system.  Look around at the spec sheets and you find notes that polypropylene can be “steam sterilized” (212+ F)  which in the food industry is done several times a shift so being exposed to some steam I don’t think would be a problem.

 Look up “ EXCELON 380610" as an example - 100 ft runs $34.95

http://www.drillspot.com/products/645572/excelon_380610_flexible_tubing

I've found it best to use compression fittings on polypropylene hose

Just a thought...

- Rod

Luv'nsteam

So much to consider....

 

Protecting the pump: I had not put much thought into this except that it may happen and I would be prudent to have a safety in place to prevent damage in case it happens.  I know little of the traps mentioned above, but will research them so I understand what to use and why.  Thank you Clammy and Steamhead for your suggestions.



Tubing: Rod, thank you for offering the material suggestions you did.  I had not considered a thermoplastic tubing before your post.  Now that you have, I am better quantifying my needs.  Whatever I use, it needs the following traits:

 

1) Must handle a minimum of 5 PSI (many times the 8 oz of pressure my vaporstat will allow, but with a safety margin built in);



2) Must handle a vacuum without collapsing, 5" of mercury is what Dan suggested, so maybe double that with a safety margin??



3) Must be flexible for easy installation and handling;



4) Must be abrasion resistant (most importantly, it must be CHILD PROOF!);



5) I prefer white so wherever it is visible it is not unattractive (must not make the wife unhappy);



6) Must handle steam temps (215*??) for at least short period of time in case the Hoffman #3 fails to close) and also if it is in contact with a steam pipe, it won't melt;



7) I prefer something that is resistant to kinks;



8) I prefer something that will not rust, rot or corrode;



9) After looking at a few choices, less than .35 cents per foot is desirable.



Am I missing anything in this list or wanting something not needed?



I am not against copper or aluminum, however, they will corrode/oxidize, they can kink, their flexibility is limited but workable.  Other traits of both of these are good.



Polysulfone meets every requirement except flexibility, at least, I have not found a flexible version yet.



The polypropylene seems to be the next best choice, however, some is not rated to go above 180*.



I will begin calling tubing suppliers - there is too many choices to keep looking on the web.  I will reserve the future websearch to investigating suggested materials.  If anyone else can offer any other materials, please do.  I will post whatever I find and ultimately use, as I am confident others on here may also benefit from what I am doing.



Joining heatinghelp.com - free

Information learned from being a member on heatinghelp.com - PRICELESS!



Thank you,



Mike

clammy

a few more thoughts

In the way past i have seen 1 or 2 Paul system they where not completely ripped out most of the vacuum line where still there and they all where copper very neatly ran back to the the boiler room ,surprisingly they had solder joints with very small 1/4 od copper .I would think that the pump only runs on a call for heat being there is really no need to run it constantly  and when the trap closes being steam arriving at it the pump with pull it's 5 hg and shut off .If your system is large i would look around and see if i could find a cross over trap or install a crossover at the end of the mains or ,if not install a large main vent on the ends of your mains to help even out your steam distrubition , i believe you may need one  that is rated for a vacuum system but that  may be unnessary i would have to think it out a bit more .hope this helps you out peace and good luck clammy

Luv'nsteam

Good info, Clammy

Knowing the exact size used by others is helpful.  Soldered joints, huh?  I think I would prefer at least compression fittings.  Your thoughts on compression versus soldered joints?



The vacuum pump will be wired in series with the boiler so when heat is called for and the boiler kicks on, so will the pump.  I was pondering a vacuum switch to turn the pump off when the needed vacuum was achieved in part because I wish not to waist electricity and in part because I am cheap a$$ and do not want to use anymore juice than required.  I also intend to look for a steam injector to see if steam in ounces will be sufficient to pull a 5hg vacuum.  I have no idea if this possible, but imagine being able to achieve the vacuum with no additional energy required.  Don't laugh - the realization of dreams coming true are what made our country great.



What is a cross-over trap and how does it work?



Thank you & peace to you too, Clammy.

Mike

Rod

Vacuum Receiver

Hi Mike-

   Just some thoughts for the vacuum end. I've done a lot of vacuum forming and to protect the pump we used a receiver on the vacuum line between what we were vacuuming and the vacuum pump. I 've attached a sketch.

The tank used is a typical 5 gal tank like those used on small home style air compressors. You can usually find used ones easily. As it is vacuum rather than pressure the condition of the tank isn't of great importance.

Notes to Drawing:

Stand- This should be loose. Don't weld it or attach it to the tank.

Tube- This should extend down in the tank but should leave enough room to any water to settle out (to be drained) and not interfere with operation of the vacuum.

Vacuum Gauge- To measure the system vacuum

Safety Valve - I know this is vacuum tank but I would still attach a good 5 PSI safety valve in case steam pressure ever got into the tank.

Vacuum controller switch - When vacuum forming/vacuum bagging, we pulled maximum vacuum (minimum 15 + inches) but you probably don't need this and might want to setup the system with a adjustable vacuum controller switch for as you mentioned, a 5 inch vacuum.

One way valve- Not shown in picture but you probably want to use a one way valve on the vacuum line between the tank and the pump. This takes the vacuum / pressure off the pump's valves when there is vacuum but the pump is shut down.

Manifold- Though you don't need one, It's very handy to use one with shut off valves to the individual incoming branches so as makes it much easier to trouble shoot vacuum leaks.

The manifold is also a good alternate place to put the vacuum gauge.Keep us up to date on how you are coming along. A lot of us are really interested in how much of a difference a  Paul system actually increases performance.

- Rod

Patrick_North

Venturi

In my own investigations into modern day Paul retrofits I was intrigued by the idea of using a simple circulator pump and venturi to generate the vacuum. No worries of a vacuum pump seeing steam, darn near bullet-proof, cheap to setup and run, and all but SILENT.

Good luck with your project and keep us posted!

Patrick

Rod

Liquid Vacuum Venturi

Hi Patrick- I'm was interested in your mention of a circulating  venturi. I 've used venturis powered off a compressed air line and have seen vacuum venturis on large condensate pump setups but nothing at the typical residential level. Do you have any more information on this?

Thanks,

- Rod

AHNOS

Upgrading a Mills, Air Line central system serving 3-buildings

We are working on replacing the boilers and optimizing the temperature control of a  single-pipe steam, Mills, Paul Air Line system in a 170,000 sq. ft. 92-unit, 3-story walk-up three-building apartment complex in Chicago. The replacement boiler will be a single fire-tube boiler with 10:1 TD modulating burner to maintain a boiler supply pressure setpoint of 2.5 psig. (The present boiler/burner operates in a low-high-off mode with a pressure cut-out of 2.5 psig and I’m guessing a cut-in pressure close to 0).  We are adding a zone valve (1 per building) to the steam supply line (1 per building) for three buildings served by the boiler.  Each zone valve will be controlled to maintain the desired temperature setpoint based on the average of up to 7 wireless temperature sensors distributed at each of the three buildings (40, 40, and 12 unit buildings) served by the boiler.  The present Paul Air line system operates as follows: the vacuum pump starts with the start of each boiler cycle and operates for about 6 minutes and then is stopped until the start of the next boiler cycle. The Hoffman No. 3 radiator vents have been replaced and the system overall seems to be operating well. There are some distribution issues—areas that are over and under heated. This is already one of the least energy intensive SPS heated buildings I’ve ever worked on that is not underheated.   I’ve given up on finding a good SPS thermostatic radiator inlet valve.  I just asked our local Hoffman air vent supplier if there are various-capacity radiator air vents made for the Air Line System. I’ve read your fascinating discussions on refurbishing/retrofitting Paul Air Line systems on SPS systems and am asking for your advice on how to optimize our Chicago system.  Here are my questions:

 

1.   Radiator Control

1.1      Is it worth trying to use thermostatic radiator valves together with the air vent to obtain local temperature control?

1.2      I’ve come across another Mills and Paul Air Line system in a 12 story building where the building engineer has had no problem modulating the manual valve at the radiator inlet to obtain local temperature control. I’ve always told our clients and residents to either keep the valve totally open or totally closed to avoid interfering with condensate flowing back from the radiator and into the risers; however, prior to this job I’ve always worked on the common up-feed SPS system where there is counter-current flow in the risers (steam up and condensate down).  Could it be that in this other 12 story building, the combined higher velocity downward flow of both steam and condensate help draw the condensate out of the radiators?  Will this also work in our 3-story low-rise?  Are there radiator valves with large ports that are least susceptible to interfering with condensate return (looks like we have both in-line and angle valves at the radiators).

 

2.      Paul Air Line System Design

2.1   Some of the reference guides show a trap and check valve at the bottom of each riser before tying into the horizontal basement returns.  Is this really necessary? Isn’t one trap and check valve sufficient before the condensate return tank/pump system?

2.2   What type of check valve should be used?

2.3   Clammy, what is a cross-over steam trap (May 25, 2011)

2.4   At least one reference guide (Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning by Harding and Willard, J. Wiley & Sons 1937) show Paul Air valves with vacuum lines at the base of each riser (for the same reason we add main line air vents after the last riser on conventional SPS air relief systems).  Our building does not have these.  Is it worth adding them?  Clammy, from your May 25, 2011 it sounds like you recommend them.

2.5  What steam travel time are we expecting to achieve to the furthest radiator with the air line system?  We presently are getting about 6 minutes on runs that are over 300 feet from the boiler.

 

3.      Vacuum pump

3.1  How do you size the vacuum pump?  We have about 24,000 sq.ft. EDR of cast-iron radiation in the buildings. The present vacuum pump is a Corona Pump Model CEH308/fnz series 1106E with a 5 HP motor (company appears to be out of business, there are not pressure gauges, don’t know what vacuum its making.)  It seems oversized to me.  I like Luv’nsteam’s idea about a steam injector to make vacuum, and Patrick_North’s idea about using a circulating pump and venture.  Do you have any more information about these approaches.

 

3.2   Is  5-inchs Hg. of vacuum (approx. -2.5psig) at the pump appropriate for this system?  This is the number that I typically see.  Is that simply because the typical boiler supply pressure is 2.5 psig and we are trying to keep the radiators at around atmospheric pressure?

 

3.3  Is it worth changing the vacuum pump operating mode (presently it runs the first 6 minutes of each boiler cycle) to continuous?  This will greatly increase electricity use especially now that we will be using a modulating burner with 10:1 TD ratio—I’m not sure its worth it.  Why not just run it for about 10 minutes in the morning when the system starts up from a cold start?  What is gained by running the vacuum continuously when the boilers are constantly modulating to maintain steam in the system? 

 

4.    Zone Steam valves

4.1    What is the right type of steam valve to use on the supply line for each building: ball gate or butterfly?  What is durable and requires the least pressure drop so that we can keep the boiler pressure as low as possible?  I’ve seen pneumatically operated Spence Model D valves used, as well as butterfly valves (which got chewed up even by low pressure steam)?

4.2    I assume that modulating zone valves would be best, with the amount of modulation proportional to how far the average building temperature is from the setpoint? When setpoint is reached should the valve close completely or let some steam through to avoid building up to much vacuum quickly from condensing steam in the system Any thoughts?

 

 

5.      Condensate return tank/pump system

We are planning to replace the existing system with another atmospherically vented condensate return/tank pump system.   I considered installing a vacuum/vapor system but decided this could over-complicate the system and compete with the Paul Air Line system.  Any thoughts on this?

 

6.      Boiler Control

The boiler/burner will have a 10:1 Turndown ratio.  But is it really most efficient to let the boiler continuously modulate?  At some point doesn’t it make sense to just shut-off the boiler instead of letting it just make-up the line-losses?  Is there any benefit to resetting the boiler pressure setpoint based on outdoor temp? Probably the best way to control this is just to rely on the outdoor temperature cut-out to shut-down the system.

 

 

Sorry for the long list…I look forward to getting your comments!

 

Thank you,

John

Patrick_North

DIY venturi vacuum pump

I did enough investigation to convince myself that I could do it, but I'm a few years from converting my one-pipe system to a Paul. With many more projects above it on my list, I didn't dig much deeper.

A scientist friend regularly uses a small venturi that screws onto a standard kitchen faucet and yet draws a wicked vacuum for simple lab tasks. Do a little Googling and you'll find they can be had in many configurations and materials, some meant for compressed air, others for water, though the effect is the same.

Some time back there was an extensive and interesting thread surrounding a experimental Paul-like retrofit that made use of a deeeeeep vacuum, but from my own investigation it seems that only a very modest vacuum (any, really- the point is simply to create the differential) is required to reap the benefits of speedy, even distribution.

Now, when we see modulating burners on residential steamers that could take advantage of lowered boiling temps under subatomic conditions... well, this project would zip to the top of my list in a hurry!

Patrick



EDIT: Here's some helpful info from one manufacturers website: http://www.penberthy-online.com/jet8.asp

Charlie from wmass

John I can answer you whole list in one sentence

Go to the find a contractor section and find Boilerpro. He is near you and can answer all of these questions and even questions you did not know you should ask. Even easier click this link. http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/105/Boiler-Professionals-Inc

Luv'nsteam

Rod, I like the design

and reusing a "discarded" air tank seems like a good "green" thing to do!  I also like the manifold idea with individual line shut-offs.  I wonder if a PEX manifold would work for this purpose, but then were back to steam-induced damage in the event of a Hoffman #3 failure.  I will have to give the parts for this some thought.  Also, I will need to compare costs for this set-up versus a trap of some kind.  Thank you for sharing the diagram - a picture really is worth a thousand words.



Regards,

Mike

Luv'nsteam

I hadn't thought about a

Venturi to create a vacuum.  I am familiar with how they function from back in the day when I played with carburetors - the venturi is a crucial physical component inside the carb used to increase velocity and help atomize the liquid fuel.  I will investigate this further and share what I learn. 



Thank you,

Mike

Luv'nsteam

John, I can answer some of your

Questions, but the advice from Charlie is far superior to mine.  I am a homeowner with a passion for steam and my home is no where near the size of what you are working on, which is beyond what I have studied.  My home is heated with one pipe steam, three floors (it was two, but I added a rad in the attic) and my new Peerless boiler puts out only 93k Btu's.



I do not mind sharing with you, all I know I learned from Dan by reading TLAOSH, Greening Steam, We Got Steam Heat and A Pocket Full of Steam Problems and Solutions.  I have also learned a great deal from the many gracious posters here on heatinghelp.com.



I will try and answer some of your questions to the best of my understanding

1.1 This is an interesting question and I am curious if it wise/OK to use a TRV in conjunction with the Hoffman #3.  In my head, I do not see an issue, but what I see in my minds eye does not always equal good practice.

1.2 You are not supposed to throttle a radiator in a one-pipe steam system with a supply valve and I think your advice to your clients is solid.  However, I have seen in my own system and others, Dead Men rules being broken.  My summation is this: sometimes steam is forgiving, sometimes not.  That said, your thoughts on gravitational pull, combined with the fact that steam moves from high pressure to low pressure, may have merit.  Supply valves in one-pipe steam systems are sized to a minimum for the rad they feed.  In my brain, I see a larger valve then needed for the radiator(s) the engineer you mention uses to throttle the steam supply being larger than needed, allowing him to reduce the steam supply to said rad without unduly interfering with the condensate return flow, but this is just a guess.



2.1 A trap and check valve in each riser seems logical to me for the Paul system - each riser, while part of the whole system, works independently as an individual circuit, a part of the whole that requires separate controls.  Not a clear explanation for sure, sorry.



2.2 I am still looking into the components of the system and do not yet have a good answer, except it must resist steam.  It must also not be susceptible to wire drawing, although, I really don't know if this is a valid concern for a check valve.



3.1 While I do not recall if I shared with Dan the details of my system, it was he who suggested a vacuum of 5hg.  I just went with it, that is how I came to that conclusion.  As for your system, that vacuum may be sufficient, but the volume of air you need to remove may require a larger CFM pump in order to realize the effect you are trying to achieve in a given time frame.  I see no reason why, after the desired vacuum is achieved, to keep running the pump and that is why I wanted to add a vacuum switch to turn the pump off regardless of what the boiler was doing.  Allowing the pump to keep running seems a waist of energy and cash to me.  I am not familiar with the pump you mention, but is there a port where you can attach a vacuum gauge to see the actual vacuum created?



Again, if memory serves me well (not often, but I digress...), the steam injector was used in early steam heat generation.  You see, the original steam heat was scavenged from steam powered electric generators.  These units apparently created large pressures and the injector changed pressure into vacuum and assisted in pulling the steam to the rads faster.  I have not yet found an injector that will convert ounces of vapor into inches of vacuum, but I have not given up looking yet either.  I will also investigate further, the idea of a circulator pump and venturi to create vacuum.



3.2 2.5 pounds of pressure is more than needed - run your system on vapor and save energy.  The idea of a vacuum works because steam moves from high pressure to low pressure, always.  When you create a vacuum in the rads, you increase the pressure differential between the rads and boiler causing the steam to move even faster to the rads.



3.3 See 3.1



4.0 I have no need for zone valves and therefore did not study these with great attention,  However, I believe Dan was not a fan of zone valves and therefore I suggest you read TLAOSH or re-read if needed.



My eyelids are getting heavy and I am not sure how to answer your other questions, so I must go.  Good luck and please let us know how things worked out.  Oh, before I forget, with the dependency on heat from so many people, would it not be prudent to have a second boiler as back up?  Just a thought.



Thank you,

Mike

Rod

Steam System Expert

John- I will endorse Charlie's recommendation that you get hold of Dave Bunnell, "Boilerpro".  He's at the forefront of being able to get the most out of a steam system and is very knowledgeable about setting up modulation and control units to get maximum efficiency. If you made a list of the top ten residential steam experts in the U.S., he would be on the list!

- Rod 

Luv'nsteam

Thermoplastic or copper?

Well, having talked with many suppliers and several manufactures of various thermoplastics, the consensus is this: none will hold up over time.  There is a class of thermoplastics mentioned called flouro something-or-other.  These tubes are made with Teflon and will handle 500*.  I was not, however, able to get a price and again, most mentioned the long-term issue of heat degradation from being near the radiator.  Also, although no one was able to give me a price (the folks I talked with were closing when I called) they all suggested it would cost more than copper tube.  I did learn of a tube material called nylon 12 and that tubing has a temp rating of 212*, but steam is hotter and the people I talked with that suggested it, also suggested it would get soft from the heat and degrade over time. 



The degradation over time was something I had not thought of.  Since being mentioned, I have decided that I too, want MY work to be around in 100 years, just like the Dead Men who built my system.  So, my bottom line is this: it will be copper all the way from the rads down into the basement.  I may consider a thermoplastic for the manifolds, at least to get started, but only time will tell.  I do hate the idea of my work being inferior from the start and I am a firm believer in "over-kill" construction, so I will likely make my own manifolds from copper and/or brass. 



I will keep you all posted as I progress and when appropriate, I will post pics too.



Thank you,



Mike

moneypitfeeder

my girl's almost 100

My standard run of the mill vapor system is almost 100 years old. All of my rads are piped with copper, and all the the mains and near boiler is in black iron. Granted my copper lines aren't flex 1/4" they are 1-1/2", but I do not seem to have am issue with dissimilar corrosion at the main where they join, and I do not have leaking at the joints going to the supply valves or traps. Something to keep in mind is that if you are soldering connections, solder has changed over the last decade, and the new stuff may or may not last as long. I tried one brand of water soluble flux that was just awful recently. (for a water line repair) I ended up throwing the whole tin out. Copper installed correctly and not subject to near boiler expansion and contraction can work just fine. It is easily painted so your mrs. will be happy, (I'm a mrs too, and my copper that connects to my rads is completely acceptable).

Luv'nsteam

100 year old vacuum steam heat - nice!

Moneypitfeeder - we must live in similar homes!  : )



I am curiouse how the vacuum is created for your system.  Could you share that with us, please, maybe pics too, if possible?  Also, the vac lines to your rads, how are they run?  My system was originally a Trane vapor-vacuum and the galvanized steel lines ran from the air-exiting side of the rads straight down through the floor. 



I have also used todays "lead-free" solder and when compared to the old stiff, I am not a fan.  But, I do have leaded solder and use it from time to time.  If I get into a pinch, I will use bronze or silver, although, the next plumber will be screaming at me when he cannot unsolder the joint.  I am sealed system certified type 1 and have learned to make darn fine joints.



For my rad vacuum lines, I think what I am going to do is run the line parallel to the supply, bring it up a few inches above the floor and then use a 90* compression fitting.  From there, I will run the line under the rad and then curve it up to the Paul valve.  In this way, if the rad ever needs to be moved, the line will be easy to disconnect and move out of the way with little to no damage.  I know most people don't move cast iron rads, but I have, at one time or another, moved all of mine either to clean and paint and/or to install a new floor.



And just for the record, I was going to use another material in place of the copper in order to accomplish the same thing, but for less money.  However, if it fails in a few years, what I have I saved?   And keeping the Mrs. happy is paramount to all home projects!   : )  On a personal note, I think it is really cool that, as the Mrs. yourself, you are learning how all this stuff works.



Thank you,



Mike

Greg Maxwell

Vaccuum Line

I would use copper, type L soft. I would also sleeve it in pvc pipe to prevent anyone messing with it. I dont know if Viega will handle a vaccuum like that, and also, you mentioned that if it leaks you will fix it, why not just spend the extra up front, and not worry about it.

moneypitfeeder

no vacuum?

As far as I know my system doesn't pull a vacuum, however it is strangely similar to another system that is a vacuum. (I can't recall which one at the moment.) Mine is the Jas. P. Marsh system located in the library. Just an early run of the mill vapor with a boiler return trap and air eliminator. I'm by trade an aircraft mechanic, so wrenching is nothing new to me. I only started learning about steam principles after going through 3 local steam contractors, one burnt my thermostat (and associated wiring) along with changing expensive parts like the control head that works just fine, swapped them out after that guy left and have a brand new one that is sitting on a shelf doing nothing, and one that could not for the life of him figure out why I had water filling all the rads of my 3 story house. (manual fill valve had a leak) It goes on from there. I figure if I read enough steam books, and hvac regulations, and consult with people here I certainly can't do worse. (absolutely no disrespect is meant to the real pros out there, I just apparently had bad luck with some locals) Plus it gives me a certain satisfaction to revive my system myself, plus it allows me to justify new tool purchases to my husband. I'm currently getting ready to add a drop header in and pipe a proper hartford loop in, then reinstall the return trap and air eliminator, just got those all cleaned up polished all the bushings and freed up all the mechanisms. Then I'll just be waiting for fall.