glycol feeder and mold

targetman

I found this tank full of water and mold.  This is new constuction and less than a year old.  Anyone ever seen this before?

nicholas bonham-carter

mouldy tank

looks like the sort of mould you only see once, and then you die.

there must have been something organic in that mix to grow that in this instance.--nbc

haventseenenough

yeeeeeech

If that is a operating feeder to a boiler or a snowmelt system. And is that feeder isolated by a heat exchanger? Could be a large problem if it is a make up for a boiler.

targetman

loop

WSHP. No heat exchanger.

haventseenenough

mold

Reclaim the contents of the tank properly dispose of contents, clean the tank and check the heating system for contaminants.

BillW

Nasty!

Mold spores are everywhere, and it is impossible to get rid of them all.  Given food and water, the stuff will thrive, like it is doing in that bucket.  Contact an industrial hygenist, or the board of health, and get it tested to find out what kind it is.

Next, contact a mold remediator to see what you can do about it.  Don't handle it, and if you are working in that area, use a respirator with a purple(hepa) filter cartridge. 

Mark Eatherton

Black light??

I have seen this in numerous glycol (propylene) holding tanks. I am not a chemical expert, but as others have pointed out, you have the ideal mix to support a significant bacterial growth. Water, food (glycol sugars), warmth and darkness (lack of naturally occurring UV light).



I'd suggest putting some Clorox into the bucket, but that would deplete any corrosion inhibitor packages in the glycol.



Maybe the glycol tank/pressurization manufacturers need to include a black light in the hold tank area as an option...



Glycol in concentration is actually recommended as a bacterial inhibitor in the food processing industry.



ME

scott markle_2

Glycol Pig

I think the open glycol feeder is a bad idea.



1- glycol will go bad in contact with air



2-glycol can feed bacteria and mold, especially if it's open to the air



How much make up water does a closed loop heating system need?



I favor a very thorough purge and a glycol pig- A dedicated expansion tank (with the bladder pressure jacked up) downstream of the fill valve that is pressurized 25-30 psi with the glycol solution.

furthur

glycol pig.

...that's a tidy solution.

Mark Eatherton

WOW, now that's a GREAT idea....

Wish I'd thought of it myself :-)



Another golden opportunity lost...



Next.



ME

bill_105

nifty idea

When I first saw this thing my first thought was the debate of, a LWCO and shut off the water, or keep it on. Ya know, the Less filling - Taste great dilemma.

I wonder what the makers of the feeders have to say.

scott markle_2

Attribution

Yes Mark you have presented this idea before. I am indebted to the wall for great ideas like this one.



As an early adopter of this technique, perhaps you can shed some light on the etymology of the term "pig".



My apologies for the missing attribution

Brendan_2

clarification

Scott

Is the location of the "pig" upstream or down stream of the fill valve, and what should the bladder pressure be?. I would imagine leaving it at 12# would induce more glycol solution for reserve

Brendan

scott markle_2

upstream

It's before the fill valve, I stated it wrong the first time, thanks for catching that.



I'm really not not sure what the pre charge should be. The one pictured is just at the factory preset of 12 and it works fine. I guess I'm a little nervous that this could be putting to much strain on the rubber by stretching it further than it should, so in the future I'll probably bump up the pre-charge. I'm a little less inclined to mess with a pre-charge since I'v learned that it's pressurized with nitrogen and I don't have a nitrogen tank.



I included a pressure gauge to monitor the glycol charge and a boiler drain for initially purging air from the top of the tank and pipes leading to the fill valve. This system is actually just charged with water, but I like the idea that there is a finite amount of make up water especially on a radiant system with so much pipe and the increased chances of a leek. This actually was put to the test twice when the insulation contractor and then the flooring guys punctured the tubes, it was a mess but considerably less fluid was spilled than would have been if the system was tied to the domestic lines. It's been running for two years now with no noticeable drop in pressure. The configuration of the boiler fill valves makes it possible to boost the charge without introducing air into the system (if it is ever necessary). The main reason I did it this way was because it was new construction and there was no water in the domestic lines, mid winter construction project.

Mark Eatherton

No problem Scott...

It makes me happy to see people actually benefiting from my ideas.



The term P.I.G. is an acronym for Pressure Induced Glycol. I developed this system due to a snowmelt system we had installed WAY out in the country. About a 3 hour round trip per service call. We had a low water fuel cut off as well as a low pressure cut off and after the third service call to rectify a low pressure condition, I developed the PIG, The system has been running now for 12 years, and other than normal fire side service, has not required any additional service on the fluid side of the system.



The pig then grew. I had a system in the mountains that was an occasional weekend home. A soldered joint that I had personally soldered decided to leak. It was located on teh second floor. It ran for a week without supervision, because like we had always done, we left the makeup in the on position to compensate for fluid shrinkage due to oxygen removal. Our insurance company at the time had a cow. They thought we were just doing "plumbing", and when they figured out that we were installing tubes with water in every square foot of the home, they got even more excited. They said that they would cover this claim, but in order to continue doing business with them, they required us to come up with something that would limit the amount of damage that could be done by our systems, so we began incorporating the PIG on all of our systems, regardless of wether or not they had glycol in them or not. The requirement of a LWCO and a LPCO was always our minimum standard.



When we started doing large multi family dwellings, the PIG didn't have enough capacity to keep the system satisfied due to the inherent nature of large systems to have numerous leaks throughout the system. I then invented the E.F.E.U. (Pronounced EF yew), which stands for Excess FLow Elimination Unit :-)



This is an arrangement of a swing type of check valve, installed in a backwards, position, on a 45 degree upward angle. The check has a manual bypass around it to allow for filling the systems. It has a pressure reducing device, and a code required back flow preventer upstream of the EFEU. The swing gate of the check essential hangs straight down, away from the seat, partially open. During normal operation, with packing glands losing water, and the myriad of soldered joints losing minute quantities of water, the gate just hangs there, away from the seat, allowing small quantities of water to pass through the assembly to compensate for water loss.



In the event that a major water loss occurs, the gate is slammed into the seat, and all flow is stopped.



I have had 2 situations where the EFEU has kicked in and avoided significant water loss and associated damage to the building. It will eventually create a nuisance "No Heat/DHW" lock out on the boilers, which will get the maintenance departments attention to address the issues at hand.



In one apartment complex, we kept experiencing nuisance lock outs, but could not find any causes. One of my installers told me that during the purging process (3 story building with bleeds on the BBR, top floor) that he had seen a garden hose connected to one of the purge cocks in one of the apartments, and could smell a strong pungent odor coming from the bathroom, like a marijuana plant. We had the maintenance people distribute letters to all of the residents, in English and Spanish, warning the occupants that the heating water was poisonous, and suddenly, our unaccounted for water loss stopped...



When the code officials first saw the EFEU, they questioned what it was, and when we explained to them how it worked, they wanted to see it made MANDATORY on all commercial hydronic heating systems.



HTH



ME

BillW

Somebody beat me to it...

Hi, Mark.  I was about to ask the same question, "what is a glycol pig?"  You explained it very clearly.  We learn something every day.  BTW, you were exactly right about the glycol sugars being the "food" needed for the mold to grow.  Paper on sheetrock, wood fibers, cloth...it doesn't matter; mold will colonize any place it has the opportunity.