Chimney Liner w. ES2

HomeOwnerNY

I'm a NY homeowner in need of replacing a boiler and hot water heater. I've received several estimates and each seem to think I should use a different system, i.e. high efficiency condensing, non-condensing with indirect, non-condensing with direct, etc. (I have baseboards & gas). So I ultimately decided to use the Burnham ES2 (since I was told it is not worth using a condensing unit with baseboards). Apparently I need my chimney lined with the ES2. One estimate said I would need to hire a separate chimney guy to install it and it would cost an additional several hundred dollars. The other estimate said he could do it and for free. My concern is that the plumber who will include it in the installation is either underestimating the project or has no idea what he's doing. So my question is, does the person who installs the furnace usually also line the chimney or should I be looking for a separate "chimney guy" to perform that work? I would prefer the liner installed correctly so I'm not replacing a chimney a few years down the road. Thanks.

CMadatMe

Better Take A Second Look

Whomever told you condensing and baseboard don't work together sold you swamp land. Did anyone do a heat loss, measure the emitters and calculate a beginning heating curve before they even presented you the swamp land? I have hundreds of baseboard systems running on condensing boilers and I'm in NY. Average savings range from 30-50%. But then again I do heat losses, emmitter measurements and calculate heating curves. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. 



As for the ES2. Yes the chimmney must be lined as per the installation manual. You will condense you flue gases. If you don't want the added expense of a liner and the chimmney after inspection can be used look at the Series 3. It's the same boiler offering the same IQ control minus the baffles and is 84% AFUE. You don't need to line the chimmney per the installation manual. Generally I see the chimmney lining being sub out to a chimmney company but also know of plenty of guys that do it themselves.

Robert O'Brien

Long read

http://www.fcxalaska.com/PDFs/BrookhavenBaseBoard.pdf





Study by BNL on Long Island, NY about condensing boilers w/ baseboard. In a nutshell,the test house spent 96% of the season in condensing mode

HomeOwnerNY

Ugh

None of that was done by ANY of the contractors. They looked at my old system and said "you need..." and 4 out of 5 said using a condensing boiler with baseboards would be a waste of money. So I went (or was going to go) with the majority opinion/swamp land.



I also just read that Brookhaven study discussed outdoor resets. I was told that I didn't want an outdoor reset because it would only make the boiler take longer to heat my house. Guess that's not right either.

Robert O'Brien

Outdoor reset

will be mandatory on all new boilers in November 2012 per US DOE regulation

James Day_2

High Efficiency Boiler

I agree with Chris, if they didn't spend the time to check everthing, time to find someone else.  First do a heatloss, then measure radiation to decide where the outdoor reset curve would land.  Do not let anyone replace your boiler by looking at the tag on the old boiler, you would be waisting your money.

lchmb

thought

I think I would be looking here for a contact in your area (hint hint) since most people who spend the time studying and helping here go the extra mile to do it right....



Look under the find a contractor up top..:)

CMadatMe

Smell Test

Why don't you take advantage of the pros here and provide us a smell test.



How many total sqft is the home?

How many sqft is zone #1?

What is the footage of board for zone #1?

Repeate for each zone.

Is the home reasonably insulated with updated windows?

Where in NY are you located (needed for design temp)?



This will give us an idea of what direction you should drive.

HomeOwnerNY

Info

Here goes:



Zone 1 (Basement)

980 sq. ft., 34 ft. baseboard



Zone 2 (1st Fl)

1310 sq. ft., 107 ft baseboard



Zone 3 (2nd Fl)

684 sq ft, 66 ft baseboard



The home is fairly well insulated. (Re-insulated most in 2008)

Windows are older Anderson but in good shape



Located in Nassau County.



Thanks for the help.

Robert O'Brien

I can tell you

you are well over radiated and a mod/con would be a great fit. I prefer Viessmann,Triangle Tube is fine also

CMadatMe

Smelled Enough

To know that Bob is on spot and he is also in your neck of the woods. Would suggest you drop him an e-mail since he is in your neck of the woods and would provide you with what you need done.

Steamhead

However

a mod-con can't use a standard chimney. They are usually vented thru the side wall of the house, but that means the intake and exhaust must exit the house well above the highest snow line recorded for your area, and maintain proper separation from windows, doors and other penetrations.



I shudder when I see vent pipes coming out of a building a foot or less above grade- what happens when you get several feet of snow, as we have in Baltimore? Either the unit shuts down, or it can release carbon monoxide into the house. This is not the fault of the appliance, but of the installer.



It might also be possible to run the vent pipes up thru an existing chimney, if the flue is big enough and there are no kinks in it. But then, no other appliance such as a water heater can be used in the same chimney. So if you were figuring on not replacing the existing water heater, that just went out the window.



Newer buildings are designed with these considerations, but older ones were not. I have yet to meet an owner who will remove a window and close up the wall so we can get enough clearance for a sidewall intake/exhaust setup.



You should definitely use the highest-efficiency equipment that can be installed safely. If there's no good place for sidewall venting, the ES-2 series is a good choice. You will have to re-line the chimney, but a flexible stainless-steel liner will go into chimneys where rigid plastic vent pipe will not.



Regardless of what boiler is used, it is absolutely essential to size it according to a heat-loss calculation. And outdoor reset will save you a minimum of 10% of your fuel- in many cases the savings are greater.



Here's a link to an ES-2 we installed. We cut the BTU input of this house in half:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/129307/Our-first-Burnham-ES-2-Install

Jean-David Beyer

intake and exhaust must exit the house...

Around here, they must not exit above a gas meter either, although the gas company put the meter right under the vent (about 8 feet under, so it may be OK).

bob eck

new gas boiler

take a look at Triangle Tube condensing Prestige 95% AFUE gas boilers. PE110 is a 110,000 BTU boiler with a built in 14 gallon stainless steel indirect water heater for domestic hot water needs. The system delivers 180 GPH of domestic hot water. Can run two showers with 1.6 gpm shower heads. The Prestige Solo is a 95% AFUE condensing gas boiler and use the Triangle Tube Smart SS indirect water heater, These boilers can be vented and bring in fresh air in 2 TWO different pressure zones. One of my coworkers installed a PE110 in his house with copper baseboard and it is condensing 90% to 95% of the heating season. Make sure you get a qualified heating contractor that knows what he is doing on this subject. Good heating with your new boiler.