Infared imaging

Big Will

I have a job were the system zoning is screwy and there is no drawing of the tube. Like an as built drawing. There are no manifolds available in the house and basically everything is funky. The customer wants to pay to correct as much as possible. However the time it takes for each zone to warm up is making it really hard to get the job done. I am tempted to buy a thermal imaging camera. I just wanted to know how well it works for this. If it will show were the tubes are and at what temp in a reasonable amount of time after turning the system on it is money well spent. Just looking for some feedback thanks.

Brad White

Can you rent one or hire

someone who owns one? They are not inexpensive, although some can be had for a third the cost of a few years ago. I own a FLIR b50 which cost me in the mid 4-figures, but I do use it a lot in my side energy auditing business. Can you justify one for your broader work?



But for one project, I would find someone who owns one. Check out local energy auditors or thermographers.  Where do you live? SF if I recall? Too bad unless you are near Boston.

Big Will

so

are you saying that SF is out of your area? I could pay one way travel time.



I think this is one of those tools that I would use all the time if I had it. its amazing the excuses you can find to use a tool like that. My biggest concern is in buying the cheaper ones. I am a firm believer in you get what you pay for. But I cant swing five grand at the moment. Throwing alot of money at things with wheels lately. And not the fun wheels either.

Big Will

FLir I7

Grainger has it locally. I am going to do it tomorrow. Hopefully it is all I have dreamed of. or at least close to it. it will be pointed at the dog within an hour. 

Mark Eatherton

Before you committ...

Look at Fluke.



Great product, and great analysis software.



ME

Brad White

FLIR and Fluke- both very good.

I have seen the Fluke cameras, the larger format 2-handed types. ($16K at the time but way down from the $80K systems of 20 years ago...). Yes, both good. The smaller FLIR devices use the same exciter/pick-up and so the money comes in with screen resolution and features. But at least the prices seem stable over the past several years so you would be less likely to see your camera drop in price by half a week after you bought it.



Good offer on coming out, Will. I love SF. They took very good care of my sister out there.

Unknown

cheap

is infrared thermometer gun, will work on dog

Brad White

Don't forget

the cat.

Hours of fun as they chase the laser dot. Seems neither humans nor felines tire of it much. 

Unknown

i play IRthermogun

around the house looking for cold & hot spots & definitely is colder where draft leaks under exterior door.........sometimes use it for cooking. gotta have a black or dark surface for an accurate reading so u need 2 cats= 1black & 1white

Big Will

so just to paint the picture

If I start with cold mass and turn a zone on how long does it take before the IR picks it up. I don't know how the tube was installed but assume 1.5 in. of concrete  and 1 in. of hardwood.

Big Will

fluke FLK-tis-9H2

This is as close as fluke gets to the FLIR I7. It has a wider viewing angle and is a few points more accurate. It has a tighter range of temperature fluke tops out at 212 and the flir is 480 deg. I am inclined to stick with the FLIR in this case. Unless there is any kind of a quality difference.

Jean-David Beyer

colder where draft leaks under exterior door.

When I got my thermogun, I thought to use it to detect leaks. It has not been very helpful in this. The coldest things I find are my fancy double windows with opticoating on the glass and argon gas between them, and the exterior doors. Not the leaks under and around them, but the temperature of the doors themselves. My doors are solid wood (not the hollow core type) and have storm doors outside them. Yet they are often in the range of 50F to 60F even though the inside air is 69F. These doors are downstairs that is heated by radiant slab at grade.

Brad White

The greater the temperature contrast

the greater the visual contrast, it pretty well works that way.



To your application, I would say you would start by seeing fuzzier warm spots where the tubing is and as the temperature rises (and the heat spreads out), your tubing will go from a warmer to a hotter color. Ideally you want 18 degrees (10C) difference but the camera can read far less.



Here are some thoughts:



Normally the camera will pick up tenths of a degree difference. (In the software, you can scroll around with a cursor and the temperatures rapidly change in 0.1 degree increments and I suspect it reads more finely than the digits say.)



However, in translating this to colors, the palette only goes so far and at least on my FLIR b50, it re-scales to embrace all the temperatures the camera sees at that moment.



For example, if I am looking at a wall/ceiling juncture and the entire temperature range is say, 68 to 72 degrees, the entire spectrum from black (coolest), through the colors from blue, green, yellow, orange, red, up into white (warmest), only reflects that narrow 4 degree range.



Should I pan across part of a steam pipe (200F +), the temperature range is now 68 to 200F and the entire spectrum stretches across that range. Finer temperature differences mean less.



Does that make sense?

Big Will

so

It does not actualy see throyg the surface? Or can it actualy pick up heat diferental under the floor.

Unknown

i dont think so

IR heat is the result of the surface temp.

Brad White

pook is correct

What you are reading is what is on the surface. The temperature palette is of course transmitting what is below the surface. But it is very much like looking into the floor. 



The attached report has some radiant floors indicated. System was Viega Climate Panel installed a few years ago.  Just to give you an idea.

Mark Eatherton

Advice...

I do this almost weekly now for a company that jacks slabs up with foam.



1. Have the HO turn the heat to this zone off NOW, and let it sit without heat for a couple of days.



2. If there is even a remote chance of sunshine getting into the room where the survey will take place, block it out or it will cause you problems. If it can't be blocked out (green house) then figure on getting in there well before sunrise.



3. Bypass and over ride any outdoor reset controls, and turn the water up as hot as you can reasonably go. 140 for tubes in crete, 180 for staple up.



4. Fire the system up for at least 1 hour per inch of cement, and protective covering before viewing with the camera.



For example, if you have a 4 " slab, and 3/4" wood over that, then you will want to start from a cold start approximately 4 hours before you start looking through the lenses of the camera.. You can start looking at the 3 hour mark.



To save your customer money, you can set up the system, and have them turn the stat up 3 hours before your arrival.



Sometimes, it help to get some distance between you and the target, so take along a step ladder that you can get up on to view the floor from a slight distance above the floor.



If you are trying to find a leak in a tube, its a completely different game, depending upon the distribution methods, heat sources, etc...



Also, don't let reflections throw you off, and don't focus too much on the color differential. It can throw you for a loop (pun intended) :-)



If you want to impress your customer, show him what the wall looks like, then place your hand on the wall for 3 seconds, take your hand off and show him your hand imprint on the wall through the eyes of the camera.



Lastly, don't forget to CHARGE for your technical expertise, and I'd recommend that you take any classes you can find in IR Thermography. It's like any technical instrument in our trade. Owning one is half the trick. Understanding and interpreting its output is most important.



ME

Brad White

That is

sound advice on all counts. I agree.

Big Will

Note high foundation loss

Thats great. It shows clear as day the importance of edge insulation.

Brad White

I sent the

same report to an architect who was being persuaded to eliminate perimeter foundation insulation for a paltry credit, on a building otherwise very well insulated.

This put the kabosh on that little effort.