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pre-filter on the oil supply line?

timo888
timo888 Member Posts: 137
Though it has its own oil filter, which was just changed by the service tech two weeks ago, a nozzle in our Riello burner got clogged and had to be replaced two days ago.



Is there any sort of pre-filtration device that can be mounted on the oil line before it reaches the Riello? I've read about them in a Beckett PDF but I cannot find them on the internet when searching "oil tank filter". What are these units called if they are available ready-to-install?



<a href="http://www.beckettcorp.com/protect/techsuppt/product-manuals/6104BAFGR04.pdf">http://www.beckettcorp.com/protect/techsuppt/product-manuals/6104BAFGR04.pdf</a>

Comments

  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited April 2011
    Fuel Filters:

    If you have only one filter, you should have two. It should be a

    Spin-On" type like a Garber with a restriction gauge on the burner filter. The other filter, a spin-on type should go at the tank. There are some who feel that this is unnecessary or use another type of filter like a canister type. Like a Fulflo FB4 or a General but I find that they do not trap sludge at any way near the rate that the Garbers do. Some even install canisters as a "Pre-Filter" without the filter element thinking that it is like a "sludge Pot" to catch the "sludge". Which just flows by.

    In my (seemingly minority) opinion, a filter should be equal or smaller than the smallest mesh filter in the system. If the filter will let fine sludge past and plug the nozzle strainer, the filter micron size is too big, If the fine particulate passes the filter(s) and clogs the nozzle strainer, the filter mesh is too large. There was nothing wrong with the nozzle. Just the strainer. When the strainer plugs, the pressure to the nozzle drops giving the impression that the nozzle is bad.

    Inquiring minds (like mine) noticed years ago that when I pulled the nozzle assembly out of a dirty boiler that had been recently cleaned by myself and I held up the assembly with the nozzle down, very little if any oil would run out of the nozzle. If I changed the nozzle and it was fine, and I tried the same thing with draining the nozzle assembly, the oil flowed out rapidly. One day, I tried changing just the strainer. It worked like the new nozzle that it was. That's when I stopped using canister types at the tank and switched ALL my customers over to spin-ons. I have never had a clogged nozzle strainer since. And that was many years ago.

    If you do it this way, with a restriction gauge at the burner filter, when the vacuum starts to go up, the first filter is plugging up. It is protecting the second filter. The second filter at the burner is protecting the rest.

    So I must ask? Did you pay for the service call or did the service company do it for free (essentially, paying for the call)? How much would it cost to put a second DECENT filter at the tank if it saved a free service call for the service company or to you for needing the service? I go with the second filter. I hate arguing over call-backs. If I agree to not charge you, I took money out of MY pocket. If you don't agree to put the proper filtration in, the call is on you. If you don't do as I suggest, and you won't pay for the second call because of a dirty filter that isn't a spin-on, I will need to wish you health, happiness and long distance.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    is 10-micron not fine enough?

    I am convinced of the benefits of filtration. Inadequate filtration is costing somebody --either the customer or the service company-- more money than the cost of adequate filtration. Unless somebody is counting up the time it takes to change multiple filters.



    My system has now a GA1-25 with a 1A-30 refill. That's a 10 micron filter. But the oil burner got plugged and wouldn't fire nonetheless. The 10-micron filter proved inadequate, right? Is 10-micron the smallest particle-size available?



    If I understood you correctly, it may not have been the nozzle but the mesh inside the Riello that got plugged up. Yet from my perspective as a customer without heat whose boiler is making loud rumbling noises scaring his wife, it doesn't matter whether it's a plugged nozzle or plugged mesh. It's still a service call, at least for me. I could change a filter but I'm not going to tinker with the Riello.



    How do I eliminate the need for a service call due to crud blockage? It seems multi-stage filtration is required with the smallest particle size filter being smaller than 10-micron.



    Can you please elaboration on this: ". One day, I tried changing just the strainer. It worked like the new nozzle that it was. That's when I stopped using canister types at the tank and switched ALL my customers over to spin-ons. I have never had a clogged nozzle strainer since."



    What is the relationship between spin-ons and keeping the strainer clean? Are spin-ons inherently superior to canisters? Or are they simply easier to change, so the customers tend to change the filter? I'm new at this, and want to know --not arguing.
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    Underground Or Basement Tank?

    If it is an underground tank, install a "Tiger Loop" that eliminates the return line to the tank.  If it's a basement tank, you could move the fuel line, so it comes out of the top of the tank and doesn't go more than 2"-3" from the bottom. Use the small general filter as your "pre-filter" than add the Gar-Ber 10 micron between it and the burner.  That's about as good as it gets. 
    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Micron filters:

    Generals and Fulflo elements may be rated at 10 microns. They must be. The manufacturers of the elements say so. In practice and my observations, Fulflo's and Generals will plug up a nozzle strainer and leave sludge deposits on a pump strainer. I have not seen the same with Spin-On Garbers. Though I did once with a Westwood that came on a Tigerloop Ultra.

    The strainer I am speaking about is the one that is screwed into the nozzle assembly that protects the nozzle from foreign bodies. It is NOT the one in the fuel pump.

    Riello burners tend to be noisy in my opinion.

    Commercial diesel marine craft, pleasure and commercial users usually use Racor filter packs with 2 micron filters. The same is true with diesel electric generators.

    What you fail to understand is that even if the filter is clogged or clogging, an amount of oil will get to the pump. It takes very little oil to the nozzle at 160# in a .50 GPH nozzle to make the nozzle work properly. But if the nozzle strainer restricts the flow of oil to the orifice, and the pressure goes down between the outside and inside of the strainer, you now have a change in air/fuel ratio into the boiler.

    What I am saying is that with two very good filters, when the first stops 99% of the crud in a year, the other 1% is going to the next filter. And so on, and so forth. The first filter will be giving you high vacuum readings and you will change both filters. You will notice that when first drained, the first filter will be much heavier than the second.

    In MY opinion, a burner will fire properly as long as the required amount of oil gets into the pump and gets to the nozzle orifice. No matter what. If the nozzle strainer is clogging, the first thing to go is pressure at the orifice. The pump pressure to the nozzle is immaterial. It is the pressure AFTER the strainer that makes the rubber meet the road. Or the correct oil spray meet the air and spark.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Filters:

    No, as good as it gets is two Garber spin-ons.

    If I could figure out how to post photos here, I would show you.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    what I am failing to understand

    is exactly what you are recommending. Please bear with me. I am not trying to be argumentive, just trying to get a picture of the configuration you have in mind.



    I already had a General 10-micron filter and the system plugged up. Are you suggesting that not all 10-micron filters are created equal, and the manufacturer's claims are exaggerated, and that I simply need a better 10-micron filter? Or are you recommending one of those 2-micron filters?



    BTW, I just purchased one of the Gar-Ber spin-ons this morning on eBay mainly because of the little gauge on top -- it should arrive mid week. When the tech removed the old filter a couple of weeks ago, it had a pile of gunk on top -- like a cupcake with sludge icing. If it had been a cupcake you'd have said, Man, that cupcake has a LOT of icing!



    So, do I need to look for a 2-micron filter to complement the Gar-Ber, or a 50-micron filter to pre-filter the crud out before it reaches the Gar-Ber? Or two 10-micron Gar-Bers in a tandem pak side-by-side? Or a 50 micron near the tank and then two Gar-Ber 10s side-by-side?
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    how difficult to relocate fuel line exiting tank

    I'd consider having the fuel line leave the tank higher up. Is that an involved procedure? Any chance of fire/explosion? Do you have to drill a new hole?



    EDIT: Actually, our line exits the top of the tank already.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    also, please define "small" filter

    because I have no frame of reference, heatboy.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Oil Crud:

    The crud is in the oil in suspension. Drain some out of your tank and put it in a big glass jar. Let it sit quietly for a day or so. Look carefully in the bottom. See the black sediment? It may be finer.

    The tech pulled off the canister in the General and it looked like icing on a cupcake? I've seen it where I had to use a pair of pliers to get the filter out of the canister. Then I had to clean out the canister. If you see that amount of sludge in less than a year, you have a major sludge problem. Easily cleaned with proper filtration or ULS (Ultra Low Sulphur) oil. Which has less BTU's per gallon so it costs more. Filters are cheap.

    I've got to figure out how to post pictures. I have some beauts.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    simple ready-made physical connection for two filters in series

    I don't want adding this second filter to turn into a two-hour $275 job for parts and labor because the tech has to make a custom flared connection and disassemble and reassemble everything.



    If the Riello clogs up they make a service visit as part of the service contract, so I'm actually saving THEM money by installing a second filter.



    A 4" length of braided stainless fuel line with NPT connectors (MxM) would be perfect, but they don't seem to be available in that length. I could simply connect the two filters with it. Is there anything I can buy ready-made for creating a short-length connection between the two filters? I'd prefer not to have a second 24" braided wire stuffed behind the Riello. The filters must be only a few inches apart because the ledge on the Logalux has not much room remaining.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    spoke to rep at spin-on company

    I spoke to a rep at a company who makes spin-on filters and he said not all 10-micron filters are created equal. The ones they make trap all particles over 10 microns. The 1A-30 filter in my General, he said, allows some through.



    PICTURES:

    For adding pictures. just click the [Choose File] button and you can navigate your files directory to select one. You can only select one at a time. To add a second (etc), you click on [Add Another File] button and repeat the process. It will show you another [Choose File] button. Files cannot exceed a certain number of bytes. I have been bringing the pictures my camera creates into SnagIt image editor and reducing the image size to 33%.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Filters:

    There are some things that may be out of the scope of our abilities. If you or someone connected that oil supply like that, you need to get a really competent professional and have them do the install.

    I could never do anything that remotely resembled what you have for fear that someone might post a picture of it for all the world so see and I would be embarrassed.

    You need to hire a competent professional with the proper tools to do this job.

    An d didn't I say that not all 10 micron filters are created equal?
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Filter connections:

    And is that General filter actually connected with two flexible oil connectors and just sitting on top of the HW storage tank?

    What state do you live in? Was it inspected? Is there a firomatic safety oil valve?

    There's never enough time to do it right. But there's always time to do it over. You need to get someone else to do it over. Correctly.

    The kind of crap that gives oil a bad name.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    please critique the install

    The oil company installed that filter (and everthing else) Please do feel free to describe their errors. I am actually creating a list and would really like to know. I am having a service-only organization in at the end of the month to go over my list. I would like to understand the problems and not rely solely on their judgment either.



    Here are some of the other things the oil company did incorrectly or neglected to do (at the time I was an uneducated consumer and trusted them):



    -- no backflow preventer

    -- no low-water cutoff (maybe not required)

    -- no shutoff valve to make servicing Extrol tank easier

    -- on/off switch not properly grounded -- green wire going to neutral prong on outlet; on/off switch single black wire; metal box itself not grounded with a pigtail

    -- no on/off switch at top of stairs; it's on top of boiler

    -- extra 90-degree elbow in vent when they could have tee'd into the flue lower down

    -- no dielectric union on water tank ( maybe not required but recommended)

    -- did not discuss boiler-room air volume requirements for 98000btu appliance

    -- did not discuss need for chimney liner for a high-efficiency unit

    -- refuse to service the Logalux water tank per Buderus warranty requirements (I've had another company in to do that but the tech arrived with only an adjustable wrench and no sockets to remove the cleanout cap nuts -- I had to lend him my metric sockets)

    -- no inspection (I wasn't even aware it needed an inspection--the subject never came up; how many boilers does a person buy in their life? It was my first and hopefully my last).



    I'm sure there's a few items I've forgotten.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    I don't know

    I don't know what this is supposed to look like. Here is what it does look like, incoming side. It is just sitting on top of the HW tank. No bracket of any sort. I thought I read somewhere that thread sealant shouldn't be used on oil lines. If you click on the image it should get bigger so you can see it better.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    but how to find

    Apart from resources like Angie's List, how does a consumer locate a competent professional? Buderus does not release names of organizations/individuals who have completed factory training. I hired a regional service company (mid-atlantic presence--we are in PA) to service the Logalux water tank (drain, flush, check sacrificial anode per Buderus warranty requirements) and the tech came with a single adjustable wrench too small for the cleanout cap nuts.



    EDIT: I should add that I provided the HW tank's model # and discussed the specific details of the service with the company's Service Manager three weeks prior to the appointment. The tech arrived with the right gasket, just not the proper tools. This is a job that cannot be sent overseas-- so it should be done with pride and done well and to high standards--especially when it's billed at $100/hour. I realize there's travel time too. But I'd pay $150/hour if I knew the job was being done professionally.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    CR88 REPLACEMENT CARTRIDGE

    I just looked at the receipt/statement for the work performed duriing the boiler service three weeks ago; it has this line item:



    CR88 REPLACEMENT CARTRIDGE



    Do I understand correctly that this is the old style felt and not as good at particle-filtration as the 1A-30 that is called for on the filter itself?
    JeffC
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    What Part......

    ....of Pennsylvania?
    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    where

    southwestern suburb of Phila
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,342
    I think

    the two are comparable, and the 88 is Unifilter's part number. General and Unifilter are both owned by the same people, and their housings and cartridges are dimensionally interchangeable. 



    Icy operates in an area with horrible fuel quality, so his customers need all the filtration they can get. We seem to be much better off in Baltimore, and can always add Gar-Bers if needed.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Ron Jr._3
    Ron Jr._3 Member Posts: 603
    I used

    a short 3/8 inch nipple between my cartridge and spin on filters . Any thread sealant approved for oil works well . I even put a little dab on the flare ends , just in case .



    The spin on really does work . Changed over from 2 catridge filters side by side to a catridge and the spin on . Cut down my own service calls from twice a year to once in 2 years .  



    How old is your oil tank ?
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    have installed spin-on

    Thanks for the info.



    Oil company tech came by to address recurring false-start issue, and while they were here installed Gar-Ber at my request (based on the advice I got here--they were news to me).  But he took the old filter away --  concerned about too much restriction on the flow that multiple filters could cause.  I wasn't in an argumentative mood and let it go.  For the time being, they're still responsible for the unit so I deferred to their judgment.



    The tank is decades old.  My guess is that it's probably from the 1950s.  The supply line exits the top.



    The techs always have trouble purging the line when they change filters, and it happened again yesterday, so I wonder if there's air in the oil, or in the line. The braided hose may have too wide a diameter. The false-starts have been worst first thing in the morning or when the boiler has not been on. If it's been firing within the previous hour or two, it ignites smoothly. Yesterday the tech had to believe me that it was making the loud rumbling and that it took 10 tries before it started because he showed up about 90 minutes after morning showers time, and could not reproduce the problem.  I am looking into a TigerLoop now. 
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    and when you click on Contact Us at Gar-Ber

    your email ends up being addressed to a General filter address.



    Thanks for the info. 



    We had a Gar-Ber installed yesterday.  Looking forward to some smooth ignition.... if dirt-clogged nozzle was indeed the problem.  Not that I'm looking for things to go wrong, but I was not cheered up when the tech had to remove the Fire-O-Matic valve that I asked him to install -- he couldn't purge the line with it inline, and said the fusible valve's orifice is too small and was causing problems for the Riello's pump (40 series, F3).  He removed the Fire-O-Matic after 15 minutes of trying to purge the line, and then was able to do it.  But he had trouble purging the line last time too, when he changed the General's filter, and it eventually worked...on its own.   He didn't change or adjust anything.
  • Ron Jr._3
    Ron Jr._3 Member Posts: 603
    I forgot to ask

    and I'm not sure if it was mentioned . How far away is the oil tank ? And is it on the same level as you boiler ?



    By experience I can tell you Riello is very , very tempermental when it comes to lifting oil with one line from the oil tank . And I see your Buderus is piggybacking the indirect heater . Add to that the exta suction needed to get the oil flowing above the tank ............ I can see why the tech had issues purging the oil line . I'd have to agree with Heatboy and say a Tigerloop is the way to go if you have any more firing issues.
  • D107
    D107 Member Posts: 1,800
    "Tech removed one filter --concerned about restriction."

    So what is too much restriction? I believe the vac gauges on the filters indicate that over 8" vacuum is 'in the red'. NORA says 1”

    for each 1 ft of lift, 1” for each 10ft of run and 1” for each filter. I've noticed that the head pressure from full oil tank reduces vac by at least one inch. So perhaps 10 micron filters add more restriction than 50 micron, but it should be pretty easy to come in at around 4-6 inches vacuum on a clean line even on a tank that's 20 ft away. Yes?
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    TigerLoop -- pump suction

    The total length of the line from where it exits the top of the tank to where it enters the Riello is about 41'.



    This Riello has been working fine for about four years (despite the various issues with the hydronic plumbing and the electrical, etc, which are unrelated to ignition).



    The problems began after the recent service.  Perhaps the jostling of the braided hose (nearing the end of its service life) when the filter was replaced has opened a small air leak, allowing air into the hose, fouling the ignition as the TigerLoop article demonstrates:



    http://www.westwoodproducts.com/tigerloop_article.htm



    I am going to have the oil company back in to replace the braided hose.



    The delayed ignition problem came back the very night a tech was here for the third time, focusing on nozzle issues. They appear to be focusing on that to the exclusion of other causes, almost to the point of tunnel-vision. When I told the tech that the problem is at its worst first thing in the morning when the boiler has sat overnight without firing, or when the boiler has sat all day without firing, he said, "That can't be".



    Is it a big deal (time-consuming) for the tech to check whether the fuel line is airtight before he connects the new hose to the Riello inlet? Would that be considered standard procedure?
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,342
    Yes it would

    I think you need someone more proficient. Try the Find a Contractor page of this site. 
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited April 2011
    Filter Restriction:

    David,

    Your "Tech" is clueless.

    If the restriction gauge you are looking at is the one that comes with the Gar-Ber Filter, when both filters are new, the needle will be in the green range and not move from where it is when the burner/pump is off. If the needle is in the yellow or red, the filter is dirty. Get that? THE FILTER IS DIRTY!!!!! If the gauge is on the filter colsest to the burner and it shows high vacuum and you change THAT filter, ind the vacuum goes up when you run the pump, THE FIRST FILTER IS DIRTY!!!

    You ALWAYS change BOTH filters.



    The tech is a part changer who doesn't understand what he is doing.

    This is Oil Burner 101.

    Tell the company that sent him to go over to Firedragon for a spanking. George teaches a lot of classes on Oil Burners and considers himself an expert on Riello Burners.
  • Ron Jr._3
    Ron Jr._3 Member Posts: 603
    Looks like 1/4 inch oil line

    For that length of run we'd like to see the next size up in oil line , 3/8 . But if it was running fine for 4 years that might not be the problem . Did the new filter come with a vacuum gauge ? Did the tech clear the oil line with a push/pull pump or a CO2 charge ? Delayed ignition could be caused by quite a few things . Could be a suction leak like you said ....... wrong nozzle or settings .... draft issues .  Had a problem Riello the other day . Delayed ignition . Turns out the ignitor ends were just a tad too close together . Repositioned them and the burner fired off smooth as silk . We've also had problem jobs where the suction leak could not be found easily so we change everything from the oil tank valve to the burner inlet . It's alot cheaper in the long run if it saves techs going back 3 , 4 , 5 times . And you keep a customer happy :)  
  • D107
    D107 Member Posts: 1,800
    restriction

    Thanks Ice Sailor for your clear info. FYI this wasn't about my tech I was referring to the original poster's comment: ..."But he (the tech) took the old filter away --  concerned about too much restriction on the flow that multiple filters could cause..." But your advice obviously applies here as well.



    (Most vac gauges should have that green-yellow-red indication as you say; ours doesn't and uses numbers instead. So in that case we assume that from 8 up is 'red.' 
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Vacuum Gauges:

    GerBer has used gauges with just numbers. They confuse many. The colors and where they fit are the same. Look at this in a vague way, 1" PSIG vacuum equals 1' of lift.  If you have a squeaky clean filter system, and you show no vacuum pressure before the burner starts, and when it starts, it is the same as the tank being 2' below the burner. But, if you have a tank that is 60" off the floor, and the burner is 1' off the floor, you have 5' of head pressure. A positive pressure on the pump. If the filters are dirty and it shows shows 10" on the gauge, it is as if the tank level is now 15' below the tank. Or somewhere near there.

    Someone else here could read all the Suntec manuals and pump diagrams they could find. And still not understand these principles. No one was ever able to explain them to me. I had to figure it out on my own when my old boss used to send me out on screwed up jet pump calls that he and no one else could figure out. I was forced into the understanding.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    Find A Contractor feature

    I'm in a suburb of Phila and only one contractor was returned by the Search when I used a a wide radius. I am having a very well established service company with straight A Angie's List rating in on the 28th to service the Logalux tank and maybe they will impress me with their competence. How will I be impressed?



    The tech will have metric sockets so he can remove the cleanout plate

    The tech will bring the proper replacement gasket for the cleanout plate

    The tech will have a power-nozzle to hose down the interior

    The tech will have a wet-vac on the truck

    The tech will make sure the ground wire is properly reseated and do a meter check afterwards

    The tech will note all of the measurements/readings on the invoice he hands me.



    What would be *super* impressive, far exceeding my expectations:



    The tech would have read the tank manual at least once before in his life

    The tech would have calipers to measure the sacrificial anode's diameter and not simply eyeball it

    The tech would have the necessary equipment to do a thermal shock of the tank interior as described in the Buderus manual, should he encounter a lot of lime scale (we have "moderately hard" water and it has been two years since the last service)
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    held my fingers over the air intake and rumbling stopped

    Another tech came by on Friday. He too had a hard time trying to purge the line. Nothing would come out of the bleeding port. He shot a CO2 canister into the supply line. He connected the intake to his own portable tank of oil. He opened the pump up and examined it. He replaced the pump. Still no luck. Then I think he did something with the Turbulator and bingo! -- oil flow. But he told me had made no adjustment whatsoever. But I saw a long screwdriver back in that area, and him moving it around or pressing something with the tip -- couldn't see very well. He left with the unit firing smoothly.



    Fast forward to 4:30 AM next morning, when our boiler comes on. Rumble RUMBLE SHAKE SHAKE, loud enough to wake me up two storeys above. I decide to remove the Riello cover, and place two fingers over the air-intake, cutting open area by 50%. Immediately the rumbling stops and the burner starts firing smoothly. I take my hand way, and the rumbling begins again.



    The tech back on 3/22 did indeed change the fin setting on the Riello air intake when dialing in the burner, opening it up wider, and when another tech came by last week to replace the nozzle, he opened it a smidgen further, to 4. I have moved it back to where it has been set for the previous four years, at 3. TigerLoop will be purchased Monday AM.



    Looking for new oil company. But I refuse to sign up with a company that says they do not service the Logalux as well (on my dime, BTW, I'm not asking for that service to be included). Surprising how many oil companies sell Buderus yet want to have nothing whatsoever to do with servicing the indirect tank, even at their standard hourly rate on a time and materials basis. I am also considering a service-only setup, with a company that does not sell oil, but that is a potentially risky choice--if something fails I could be out of pocket in a big way.



    This reading is actually from 3/22, although I just noticed when taking the picture that the printout gives a date in 2008!!! The tech stapled the reading to the invoice on 3/22/2011 along with his company business card on top, and the business card was obscuring the date/time. Are these BACHARACH devices like cameras where you have to remember to set the date and time? I certainly hope it's not a case of outright fraud.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    Gar-Ber stays motionless in green

    Is the Gar-Ber needle supposed to move or jiggle when the burner is firing? The one I just had installed remains perfectly still, at the far-end of the green.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    FireDragon

    Do they have online courses? I doubt my heating oil company would send anyone 30 miles let alone 300 miles to attend a course on Riello burners.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Gauges & Books:

    If the needle stays in the green, and doesn't flutter or move when the pump is running, there is no restriction. Obvious to some. If the needle moves up from vacuum, it shows restriction of some sort. Called, "Static Suction" or "Pumping Suction". Static Suction" is when at rest. Pumping Suction is when the pump is pumping. The difference is the restriction.

    Buy Firedragon's books. Don't take a class. I fear that you would be too disruptive with questions and arguments of yours. Firedragon isn't noted for his patience. That's why his site is for professionals. And they get kicked off for asking stupid questions. Your skin may be thick enough. Mine isn't.
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    edited April 2011
    how to know it is working?

    Remember, icesailor, I'm not an oil tech. It occurred to me that if the needle didn't move even the tiniest bit when the pump was pulling, the gauge might be defective.  How would one know the gauge was working?



    And remember, too, my oil company service manager told me he didn't want to put two filters on the line for fear of too much restriction. 



    So I thought there must be SOME restriction from the filter when the pump starts to pull, and it would show up with the needle moving at least a tiny bit.



    My intention is not to take the course myself but to encourage the heating oil company to give their techs the opportunity for  "continuing education".   I know they're too cheap to send them to Massachusetts, but maybe they'd pay for an online course.
  • Ron Jr._3
    Ron Jr._3 Member Posts: 603
    edited April 2011
    I would try

    Oiltechtalk,com also . Alan runs a great site with amazing oil servicemen posting on there all the time . And unlike that other website , this one is open to all and does not frown upon giving tech help to homeowners . Just like The Wall ! And you won't have to worry about someone jumping down your throat for " stupid questions or arguments " ............ Civility is paramount on OTT , where noone talks down to homeowners (As well as here . Most of the time , right Ice ? )  .  



    You can use the search function to bring up posts about Buderus / Riello from many years back . There are quite a few . The settings for that particular burner  / boiler combo have changed a few times ........ 



    To check the vacuum gauge you can shut the valve before the filter and it should bring up the needle pretty quick . I'd wait till the serviceman installs the Tigerloop and ask him to check .    



     
  • timo888
    timo888 Member Posts: 137
    Oiltechtalk

    Thanks for the link.  Much appreciated.



    I came to this forum wanting to become an "educated consumer". I  don't want to be a DIYer on the boiler or burner -- just to be clear about that!  Some things I'm willing to take on-- a water leak is something I can handle if I make a mistake when working on some plumbing.  But fire and explosion and carbon monoxide are outside my comfort zone.
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