Obsolete oil burners-Carlin 175FR-1

CapeCodOilGuy

Up here on outer Cape Cod, it's not uncommon to encounter very old equipment, with owners who are simply too economically "under the weather" to replace it right away. Thus, I occasionally encounter old 1725 rpm burners like ABC, etc. The latest is a Carlin 175FR-1. Is there any possibility of finding info or parts such as electrodes for this unit? Note that when possible, I generally recommend replacement of these units with either a Beckett AF or a Carlin 100CRD, since the appliances themselves are generally low-static pressure setups.

Robert O'Brien

How long?

How long have they been under the weather? 1979?

EddieG

You

Check the Simithsonian in DC, act quickly. They maybe closed for a good while after midnight! KIDDING!!!! You should be able to find just about anything for it. Through after market companies like Westwood, Crown, or Sid Harvey. But as long as you keep repairing it, they will be under the weather! I have gotten to the point, that I will walk away from an artifact before I will repair it. It always becomes a big headache and a pain to find parts. Besides with the price of oil a new unit will  pay for itself in no time.

icesailor

Carlins

It must be older than 1975. I was using 100 CRD's before 1970. The "D" standing for "Double-Speed", 3450 motors. And I guess they still make 100 CRD's but most of us who use Carlins, use the EZ-1 or the EZ-66.

Either way, don't "enable" these people. You do yourself and them no favors by helping them maintain this junk. If I remember, they used a 1725 "J" pump. Try replacing that on the cheap.

I was contemplating something today and this tidbit flew across my aged brain. If I charge $100.00 per hour, it works out to $1.66 per minute. How much time do you spend on uncompensated time to keep some customers in the cheap. I have some old parts saved that I may use somewhere but I don't make a project out of something when I can be somewhere else being constructive and profitable.

Don't misunderstand me. I do my fair share of helping out. But I pick my battles. I've found that with some of these old burners, who have gone way past their prime, they have become possessed by some gremlin that has it in for me. No matter how hard I try, I can never get it to run well, and I'm always going back because I now own the thing.

billtwocase

old stuff

I know the feeling. It must be a Cape Cod thing. Most don't understand that these are seasonal homes here, and the owners are not interested in upgrades, unless it is totally broken. Whether it may fail during a winter does not matter, the house gets drained and closed until spring. I much prefer new equipment as well, but with the failure rate of these newer replacement parts, I'll take a 1725 motor and "J" pump any day. I have seasonal homes that use as little as 100 gallons every 3-4 years. What would the pay back be to upgrade a system with that kind of consumption? Many many years. 

CapeCodOilGuy

what goes around-at either 1725 or 3450

While I understand the sentiment behind some of the replies, there's a big difference between a primary homeowner who goes through several tanks of oil a year and a vacation home owner who goes through a tank every 3 years. There's also a difference between someone making 100 k/year and a fisherman who might have to go into hock for 5 years to replace his boiler-and needs a new Diesel for his fishing vessel. I've found that when I help someone like that through a winter with an artifact, I'm the one he comes to when he does buy new. I don't make a career out of trying to resuscitate ancient oil burners-but up here, knowing how comes in handy, and if there's a real need, I'll do it. Thank you, Icesailor, for your suggestion on parts sources-don't know why I didn't think of it. Also, if the pump were to go bad, I'd tell the customer to forget it, he'd be better off replacing the equipment. Thank you, Billtwocase-your reply is spot on-you must be a Cape Codder!

CapeCodOilGuy

credit where it's due...

Oops-my mistake-thank you Eddie G for the suggestion on sources. I have an account at F.W. Webb, and sometimes forget about Harvey as a resource. Again, I can assure you, this unit won't become a project. The home is actually for sale-and I plan to get my foot in the door to sell them a new system when it changes hands. You don't want to know how old this stuff is; Eisenhower may have been in the White House when it went in-and the Smithsonian was probably open for business....

meplumber

Similar situation here.

Just as bill and CapeCod where saying, we deal with mostly 2nd and 3rd homes here in my part of coastal Maine.  We drain them in the winter and if the heat is left running, it is left at 50 or lower just to keep the paint and plaster from cracking.  I have a whole host of 1725's out there (Stewie's, Delco's, old Carlins and plenty of coal conversions.)



I would love to sell them new equipment and my tech's would love it if I did, but the payback just isn't there when they are only using the place for a few months out of the year.  That just makes us better than most with the old stuff.

Steamhead

And that Carlin isn't as old-fashioned as you think

Look at the model number. If memory serves, the FR means "Flame Retention". By comparison, the 99FRD we're familiar with means model 99 Flame Retention Double-speed. So this should be an early low-speed flame-retention unit. Think Beckett SR or any low-speed Sunray Golden Cup unit and you get the idea.



Charles Burkhardt, in the 1969 third edition of his book "Domestic and Commercial Oil Burners" refers to the Carlin flame-retention head as one of two recent advances in burner head technology (the other was the Gulf Econojet, made by Sunray). This would seem to indicate that Carlin was the first to market flame-retention, and that an older Carlin is more likely to be a flame-retention unit.



As long as the equipment this type of burner is used on doesn't have a lot of back-pressure, and they are set up properly, these units will give good efficiency and not make smoke or soot. So you're right, there wouldn't be much of a payback from replacement, unless it needs a part you can't get like the air tube.



My 1970 Steinen nozzle guide doesn't list the 175FR (it may be newer than this), but all the FR models it does have use 60° HOLLOW nozzles. Keep this in mind if you have trouble getting it to tune up.



Both Sid Harvey and R.E. Michel carry various types of Carlin electrodes and other parts. You might have to match the old one to the new one by taking it to their store. This is one thing you wouldn't have to do with a newer burner.



If all else fails, call Carlin. Their people are quite helpful.

AMH112181

Payback

Payback ???  On a second or third home ha sell then a new burner a least.  If they can afford a second or third home they can afford new equipment.  I would still help the blue collar fisherman though.

Robert O'Brien

This

whole "no money" thing is a red herring! How do they afford oil at $4+  gallon?  In reality, what they can't afford is a money eating pig in the basement! The savings in upgrading to a proper new oil system is about 35%. Converting to a gas mod/con? 65-75%

You can either spend it on a new system or send it to Saudi Arabia,but either way you'll spend it ! Your choice!

icesailor

Carlins:

CCOG,

That "175" stands for the motor speed 1725 RPM, the "FR" is for "Flame Retention" and the "-1" stands for the first modification.

I live on Cape Cod but I don't work there. I work SE of you. It's MY experience that if the oil is 3 years old in the tank, it will run like crud. The oil is all screwed up.

I've done my share of nursing things along with hopes of doing the work when the house is sold and the new owners take over. My experience though is that they hire some hot shot college graduate of the school of construction management and they have already found a poodle to sit at their lap and tell them what they want to hear. His poodle will have vast experience in nothing related to what needs to be done. So, what I remember is this. "They are smart. I'm not."

I have no idea how many hours of uncompensated time I have spent on trying to find some antique part to keep it going.

The recipient of your good will sells the property for mucho dinero, shares none with you, the new owner has Joe college construction supervisor do a gut re-hab on the property, and the boiler and burner go into the dumpster, never to be seen again until it hits the landfill.

Steamhead

Yeah, but

some customers just don't want to do that. And they're the ones who are paying us.



I don't press the issue if the burner is a flame-retention type, and will burn clean with good efficiency. Often all it takes is some de-knuckleheading.



Case in point- we just worked on a Burnham V-35 with a Sunray FC burner, one of Bola Kamath's creations. It had the wrong nozzle in it (60° hollow instead of 45° solid), the head adjustment was way off, there was too much draft and the boiler took forever to make steam. But once all that was corrected, it ran great. We brought it into the 21st century too, with a delay valve, electronic primary and higher pump pressure (as we do on all our burners), and got rid of the unnecessary oil return line. I would have preferred to change it to a MegaSteam, but that wasn't happening this year.



This customer is in much better shape than she was, and can save some money for an eventual replacement. But if that had been a non-flame-retention burner, we would have simply replaced it.



BTW, if anyone working on one of these older flame-retention burners comes across the I&O manual stashed near the unit (it pays to look UP, often they're stuck up in the joists overhead) see if the owner will let you digitize it. Then check with Alan Mercurio, over on Oil Tech Talk to see if he has that manual on his site. If not, he will want to add it. Alan's collection has come in real handy for many of us.

CapeCodOilGuy

Thanks again

Steamhead, as usual you are a gold mine of good info. I'll be looking at it Monday; should be interesting. I remember the Gulf burners, but this is my first visit to the Carlin FR. The plumber who referred me says it has a Delavan .75/80-A nozzle. The furnace is an ancient Delco; I'm sure it originally had a Delco burner with the "Rotopower" self-contained motor/fuel unit; the Carlin is no doubt a replacement.

Steamhead

Someone had the right idea

all those years ago, to upgrade the burner. Take pictures if you can and post them here, and let us know how you make out!

CapeCodOilGuy

Obsolete burner info

I actually found a source of info on the 175 FR-1, along with some other old burners, boilers and tech info. There's a website called http://www.hvacprotech.org, and if you go to the "contents" page and click on "oil section," you'll find this page. The specific page is http://www.hvacprotech.org/Firedragon/firedragon1.html. I was able to download and print a spec sheet on the burner showing retention head, nozzle and electrode settings. The hvacprotech site has all kinds of information on all kinds of equipment, from ammonia compressors to hydronics to motors, ad infinitum. Amazing place, this internet! Hope this is useful to others here.

Steamhead

Excellent!

I hadn't been able to find that page for quite a while- I have it bookmarked now. Let us know how you make out. 

billtwocase

CapeCod

I found my book on that burner if you need the info. The transformer is a T95 if you need from Sids, and a standard 1725 motor. I think I still have at least one out there, as they were a so-so burner, but much better than some in that era. I can post here if you need the specs.

CapeCodOilGuy

Obsolete burner info

Well, folks, this saga ended rather abruptly, in a cloud of smoke from a smoke candle. I had warned the customer that with a furnace this old, the heat exchanger would have to be checked before I would proceed. First I checked with my trusty Bachrach manometer, and thought I detected movement when I turned on the furnace blower. A smoke candle went into the combustion chamber, and within thirty seconds I was seeing smoke in the plenum. 'Nuff said-out she goes! I explained to the customer that my job description doesn't include assisted suicide...

By the way-thanks for all the suggestions, and thanks Billtwocase for your research on parts and info-up here that may come in handy again sometime.

CapeCodOilGuy

Next....

Now it's on to the next old-timer. Steamhead, this is the old WM we corresponded about, with the ABC 1725 burner. I acquired a used Becket AF which I plan to install, perhaps with a delay valve. By the way-while we're on the subject of the arcane, I have another customer with a Becket installed in an older WM (66 or P68-GE); this burner has some kind of damper in the blower wheel operated by a centrifugal mechanism, kind of like a starting switch in a split-phase motor. Anyone ever run into this?

archibald tuttle

smoking

I had a cracked exchanger in my house when I was in my 20s, and found it worked fine if I didn't idle the fan until the plenum warmed up.  As long as you had higher pressure around the plenum, the exhaust stayed (largely) on the fire side.  The house was less sooty than the wood stove I was using up till that point and young folks are immortal anyway. Not that i'm recommending this as a business practice, but your post brought back memories.



And the other building on our place had a 1725 shell head mounted in cleanout door of a converted coal steamer. Only updated that to an AF II in the upper door a couple years back. 



The other one ran pretty good, and matching degree days I don't think we even got 5% out of the conversion. Now it was free, because I did it and I got the  burner as a cast off from somewhere. I'm shocked, shocked that someone was giving up on an AF II.



Of course I had to guess at the nozzle and I went with AFII specs for the longest boiler I could find them paired with, but my first try with a 45 deg. was NG. Went to a 60 and that made a lot of difference.



Still, it used to gauge out in the upper 70s with the 1725 and now it makes the low, and I mean low 80s.



Brian

heatingguy

175FR-1

The 175-FR-1 was last sold in 1982. The Electrodes are the same as the 201/301 CRD

Steamhead

Save the burner

in case you or someone around you needs something off of it. If you don't want to keep it, I'll pay for the shipping to Baltimore. 

Steamhead

You definitely want that delay valve

even in an older boiler like the 62 series. If you're replacing the pump, go with the CleanCut since it has the valve built in.



That centrifugal damper was a good idea that didn't work well. It tended to not open fully and cause sooting. Replace it with a standard coupling.



If that's a 68 series boiler, the burner had better be an AFG, since the AF lacks the static pressure to fire these boilers properly. Their flue passages are extremely tight. Some AFGs on 68 boilers used the usual fixed heads, others used the adjustable L1 or V1 heads. Make sure you have the right head and nozzle or you'll have a lot of trouble there. It's also a great idea to upgrade to pre- and post-purge on 68 boilers, by using an R7184P, R7284 or GeniSys primary.



If it's a 66, it's not as tight as the 68, but I'd still prefer the AFG. 

CapeCodOilGuy

thanks again

So much great info on here! Makes me really wish I could have salvaged that unit. Thanks, Heatingguy; good to know if I keep that burner, and good for Steamhead to know if I send it on to him!