True or April Fool?

DanHolohan

<a href="http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/04/01/135043674/hands-free-faucets-can-harbor-nasty-germs?sc=17&f=1001">http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/04/01/135043674/hands-free-faucets-can-harbor-nasty-germs?sc=17&f=1001</a>

icesailor

No Joke:

That's no April Fool's Joke.

That's a continuation of a post by Mark Eatherton last week. This is a serious "Unintended Consequence" of the rules on low temperature hot water to protect against scalding. Under the rules of the last presidential administration and seemingly continued under the current, no rule meant to protect the public could be enforced if it "MIGHT" adversely affect the bottom line of any business. Four years ago, I was reading articles about a bacteria (claimed to be unknown) that was being found in shower heads and mixing in the aerosol spray of ultra low flow shower heads. The bacteria was inhaled into the lungs and people with compromised immune systems were more susceptible to the bacteria. Interestingly, women were more susceptible to this bacteria. And as I remember, a very large number would test positive through PCR and DNA testing to this unknown organism. The fact that shower heads were never seeing really hot water and that modern hot water systems seemed to make a nice environment for this bacteria. Setting water heaters to 125 degree maximum may be a contributing cause. 

I'm just a dumb F plumber. But it sounded like Legionella to me. Who listened to me. What credentials do I have? Or did they know and not want a panic?

In Massachusetts, there is a section in the plumbing code prohibiting using potable water from a water heater as a heating source of a building. When that brilliant idea of using water heaters as building heaters and providing domestic hot water came along, pushed by the big home builders as a way to save money and line their pockets with more cash, it was forced upon us. Over many objections. The water heater manufacturers saw a golden opportunity to sell more water tanks at a much higher margin than they were getting on standard tanks, all for making another hole or two in the tank, and away we went.

Along comes new information naming the culprit as Legionella Pneumonia. Who's a thunk.

If you want to protect yourself, crank your water heaters up to "Hot" or 150, run that hot water through the faucets that have aerators because it likes aerators, and run it through the shower heads. The higher temperatures will kill the bacteria in the water heater tanks.

If you want to help out your system, install a Sparco/Honeywell AMX 101 water heater mixer. You can then run the water heater at 140 degrees and the system will be 120 degrees. I'm sure that Sparco will be changing the settings so you can adjust over 120 degrees and then set it back.

This is no laughing matter and it isn't an April Fools Joke.

It's just that the biased Main Stream Media finally woke up to a problem they have been ignoring for years.

DanHolohan

I'm with you on all that.

But the story is about the germ difference between automated and non-automated faucets. 

icesailor

Faucets:

Dan,

The problem is the same.

The destination where I work, I fly to every day. They just did a multimillion dollar renovation and addition. They heat and cool the building with geothermal with 4 160GPM ground water pumps. The building is certified "Green". In the new and renovated restrooms, they put electric instantaneous demand heaters in the ceilings above the sinks. The water in the sinks is never even 110 degrees. Whatever they are finding in low temperature faucets and parts, whether automatic or manual, will be based on some form of a bacteria that is resistant to or is happy in a warm environment.

Commercial dishwashers and glass washers require 180 degree water to kill the germs. You don't need chemicals to kill bacteria with 180 degree water. Now, they are allowing cool water and chemicals. The chemical companies get to sell a lot of bleach. Not all bacteria is affected by bleach. Any health inspector can walk into a commercial kitchen, walk into that kitchen, hit the rinse cycle on the dishwasher and watch for a violation if the gauge doesn't register 180 degrees. Not so easy with multi-chemical low temperature washers.

The stuff is all around us. We don't need to give it an excuse to grow. 

Jean-David Beyer

no rule meant to protect the public could be enforced if it "MIGHT" adversely affect the bottom line of any business.

How do they determine that? Let us assume (contrary to the results reported, I admit, in this case) that those faucets really helped prevent spread of infections, but cost a lot more than regular faucets. Would a rule requiring them be unenforcable because the increased cost might adversely affect the bottom line of the hospital business? What if the cost of the lawsuits for criminal negligence resulting in wrongful death is included in the picture? Lawyers would get rich.



If the money tree blooms this summer, I will have an automatic mixer valve installed at the output of my indirect hot water heater so I can set the set point of 145F instead of the 125F it is now for the heater. Probably one like this:

http://www.taco-hvac.com/en/products/5120%20Series%20Low%20Lead%20Mixing%20Valve/track_file.html?file_to_download_id=18139

 This may lower my risk. But that still leaves the 120F water in the hot water pipes and the line to the shower head, and these would gradually drop to ambient temperature. So, while this would lower the risk of bacterial growth in the hot water tank, it does nothing to reduce the risk in the connecting pipes. So I wonder if the lowering of the risk from the tank is enough to warrant putting the mixer valve in there. I guess I will never know.

Gordy

Interesting article, and very true

 But bottom lines I see.



1. the faucet manufactures that make the automated type just took a big hit.



2. I'm not so sure it should condemn automatic sink faucet use outside of a hospital scenario. I say this because of the way legionella is contracted. How many people drink out of a public bathroom sink faucet which could put them at risk by contracting legionella through aspiration (water down the wrong pipe). In a hospital room where a patient is staying this could be a problem.



3.  I think you have to look at what bacteria an automated type of sink faucet can protect you from. All though in a public rest room scenario once hands are washed there is the path upon exiting the bathroom that can recontaminate your hands. That why bathroom design plays a key role. I like the ones with no doors, and use a curvy entrance/exit as to not allow the bathroom to be seen from the outside, but allow entry exit with hands free interaction. Problem with that type of design is they require more square feet of floor space.





4. All in all the finding is revolutionary in that there is investigation, and action taken against legionella pathways.



5. I would be curious as to what action/stance manufactures have on the findings.



Gordy

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)

struck me too

One of the things I learned during my research was that rubber components offer a very favorable site as food and nursery for Legionella. But, all things being equal, they don't appear to be looking beyond the faucets themselves. The bacteria did not swim upstream through the faucet outlets! Kind of like the old song about the knee bone being connected to the....... Those faucets were colonized from the Distribution Network that's connected to the Point of Source (water heaters) that's connected to the Bacterial Source (municipal water supply).



If they were to treat the water where it enters the building using either Chlorine Dioxide or Copper/Silver Ionization, raise the Point of Source temperature above 140F, elevate the 2nd-stage heat-pasteurization and circulate the DHW Distribution Network with minimum of 125F at the end of the return, and, only lower the water temperature at (within a few feet of) the Points of Use, well then - they'd have a germ-free system! Water delivered to a hands-free Point of Use faucet free from germs would find it difficult to be colonized and Copper/Silver Ionization is the only known treatment with a residual kill-rate in idle temporarily stagnant lines. It would seem logical that water treated in this manner passing through a Point of Use faucet would tend to maintain its sterility.

hot_rod

or maybe

we need to put the lead back in the faucets and brass



Some of the solar controllers coming over from Europe have legionella settings on them. Once a day for a 1 hour period the tank has to be elevated to 140F.



I suppose it would be good to run the recirc pump during that higher temperature setting, and be sure point of use mixers are installed.



hr

icesailor

True or April Fool?

I meant to post this with my last post.

I don't personally think that hands free faucets are a big problem. It is the low temperature hot water in DHW system that is a bigger problems. And also, that it is another example of the laws of unintended consequences. That no good deed goes unpunished.



http://www.cdc.gov/eid/content/17/4/579.htm

Mark Eatherton

The perfect Legionella storm...

Low temperature water, plastic and rubber parts, occasional use, and people with compromised immune systems.



The hospitals "Discovery" is sad, because they know it can survive occasional quick baths of up to 180 degrees F. I think if they looked even further, they'd realize that the bacteria is pretty much everywhere, and is found in higher concentrations in other areas of distribution.



And, as I have stated so many times before, we are fighting an uphill battle due to potential litigation from hot water scalding. Our code authorities have had numerous occasions where they could have made a difference, but due to the powerful HBA lobbying groups, it dies before it can be voted on.



When ARE these people going to learn? Are they not charged with protecting the health of this country?



Maybe between NPR and the ASSE, some positive actions might be taken.



No joke...



ME

Jean-David Beyer

Maybe between NPR

If you mean National Public Radio, not much chance: budget cut.

Mark Eatherton

Yeah... Been following their bad luck.

I understand that their EX CEO said that they COULD operate without the need for Federal Subsidies...



Now that they cleaned house at the top, can probably get by with a LOT less money than they had before...



Lesson learned, be careful what you say in public, especially if it MAY be recorded and played back at a later date.



ME

meplumber

To expound on what Dave said....

There was a line of flexible ss faucet risers being sold at the home centers a few years ago.  The risers had a rubber liner as most do, however the specific rubber compound that they used harbored massive bacteria growth, especially on well water. 



We had a rash of new customers a year or so ago all with "sulphur smell" from specific fixtures.  Turns out that a new plumber to the area was using the home center supplies.  After removing all that we could find and replacing them with the old brass or stainless hard risers, the smell went away.  When we removed them it didn't take long for us to realize where the smell was coming from.



American Standard used to run an ad campaign that said "Plumbers protect the sanitation of the nation."  Or something like that.  Seems like we aren't taking that seriously anymore.

Charlie from wmass

They still have the posters for sale.

I have a few. People often ask me what I have against consumers buying their own supplies from home centers. They also say why would they sell it if it did not meet code!. They do it all the time.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)

The Plumber Protects the Health of the Nation

Stop by & leave a message. I did: http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Plumber-Protects-the-Health-of-the-Nation/155296257844004