Installing a new system

sbmfj

Hi,



I have a hot water gravity hydronic system, and will be upgrading the furnaces. I have gotten a few quotes, and the prices seem quite high (about 3600-4100 each) for a furnace that costs about 1500$. In general, would service techs install a boiler that I buy on my own, or do they usually only install what they sell so that they can make a profit on the boiler itself? Im thinking that I could buy the boiler/furnace, and then call a plumber/installer, and try to save some bucks.



For those in the industry, does this generally work? Would I have warranty issues? I would hire out a legal tech installer, not just some jack of all trades, just wondering if this will this would 'fly' or if its something that no tech guy would be interested in.



Im in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Im looking at installing a Slanf/Fin Monitron electric Boiler ( <a href="http://www.slantfin.ca/product-monitron-eh.html">http://www.slantfin.ca/product-monitron-eh.html</a> ). Electricty rates in Montreal are quite affordable.



If you guys know of someone in Montreal that does this type of work, please let me know, I have a job for him/her!! (fingers crossed)

Steamhead

Well, first off

we do NOT discuss pricing on this forum. That's a basic rule here.



Second, you're not just buying a boiler, but also whatever is needed to hook it up to your system. Depending on what is needed this can cost quite a lot.



Third, you're paying for that person's know-how. This is needed so your new boiler will work safely and properly.



So you really have nothing to complain about.

sbmfj

It felt like a lot

Sorry for mentioning the prices. Im simply trying to save money, and am willing to pay for the parts, and the tech's services in order to have the system running properly. If I can save a 30-40% mark up on a boiler, Im all for it.



But generally, I imagine contractors arent too keen on this idea? What about warranty issues?

CMadatMe

Warranty

Here's how the warranty would work.



I warranty my joints from leaking and that I properly piped and installed the boiler per the mfg installation instructions. You own the rest. Rest meaning any part that you purchased to include the boiler.  So if you would like me to install it for my current labor rate sure but you should also know that any time I have to spend running to go get a part or replace a part that you provided that isn't right you are paying for my time.

sbmfj

how long to install...

Thanks for elaborating. How long do you think it would take to dismantle the old system, and install a new one? Obviously it would be a general guess, but Im just trying to figure out if Im being taken advantage of.



Im looking at installing an electric boiler as such... http://www.slantfin.ca/product-monitron-eh.html



Usually, on a job, do the service guys take out and dispose of the old boiler, or do I have to do this? Whats the average mark up a plumber would put on a furnace? (I hope this doesnt violate the price discussion ban, as Im asking for a rate%)



Thanks

Jean-David Beyer

you're paying for that person's know-how.

There is a great story that goes:



Steinmetz retired as an engineer from General Electric to teach

electrical engineering at that city's Union College in 1902. General

Electric later called back as a consultant. He had worked on a very

complex system that was broken. No one could fix it no matter how hard

the technicians tried. So they got Steinmetz back. He traced the systems

and found the malfunctioning part and marked it with a piece of chalk.





Pay the Bill

Charles Steinmetz submitted a bill for $10,000 dollar. The General

Electric managers were taken back and asked for an itemized invoice.





He sent back the following invoice:



Making chalk mark $1



Knowing where to place it $9,999http://inventors.about.com/od/astartinventions/a/Steinmetz.htm

icesailor

Installing A New System:

Someone pointed out that we don't discuss prices.

That said, someone has to pay for my equipment. I didn't pay for it with my labor. I didn't pay for my truck or my office with my labor. My business pays for my training and seminars I go to to stay current. Anything that can be considered "overhead" is supposed to be paid by the difference between what I pay for something and what I am able to sell it for. That includes all forms of liability insurance, health insurance, and any other insurance that the insurance robber barons can stick me with.

What I charge for labor covers all the things that were covered when I worked for someone else. My cost to my old boss was close to what he charged for me. It was a lot more than he paid me. He always told me that it was the ability of me being able to install what he sold was where he made his money. Not what he paid me.

If I do a job where you supply all the materials and I supply the labor, I might as well go back to work for my old boss. But he died last Fall.

I have no problem with anyone trying to save a buck or two. If it is to cost me money that I need, consider me out. 

When you hire a licensed professional, you are paying for equipment, knowledge and experience. On the cheap, you may not get what you could have.

My favorite new TV show is the one on HGTV, "Holmes On Homes" and his new one, "Holmes Inspections". I've seen a lot of interesting installs on his shows. Perhaps I will see your project on there. Be careful who you hire. You might make TV.

CMadatMe

I Was Hoping

That my post would turn on the lightbulb upstairs but guess not. I'm with Ice.

lchmb

2 pennies..

The warranty the company I provide on an install is for 1 year parts/labor. You would be amazed how many "little problems" occure over a years time.

Now in our case, if you provide all the parts you pay the "service rate".... If I supply all the material's you pay the "install rate".....Now since we cant discuss pricing...

Install rate= (----)

Service rate= (-------------------------------)

Oh and you get a 30 day warranty on my service rate only. So if your part fail's, you pay....each and every time I have to return...

And in all honesty, I have yet to see anyone save money through this option.

zacmobile

savin' moneys

I am in Canada and have admittedly installed a couple of customer supplied boilers and each time I could have sold it to them cheaper than they bought it for from the wholesalers, because they get charged the walk-in cash rate and I get the preferred contractor rate. It's a lose-lose for both parties.

Eric_32

..

Ice, that was 100% dead on. So many people don't realize what goes into an hourly fee, and think it's all profit.

Thanks!!

sbmfj

well explained

Thanks for the feedback. I have a much better understanding of what will be offered by having a pro install my system from A-Z. The guarantee and good workmanship will make it owrth while. Ill shop around and try to find the best bang for my buck. Thanks again. Hope I didn't insult you guys, thats the last thing I want to do.

lchmb

none taken

No insult taken here...While shopping make sure to get references and make sure to look over your contract's (also any permit's needed). Sometimes the best price is not the lowest... You want to make sure all equipment and controls are updated so you dont have a new system with old parts...

sbmfj

feel awkward asking for references

By references, you mean old client references? I alwys feel awkward asking for those. Whats a polite way to approach this with the potential installer.



Ill also ask if permits are needed.



For cut off valves and whatnot that are installed in the new electric boiler for my gravity/hydronic heating system, they should all be brass? All the pipes need to be threaded as well, correct? What else should I be looking for?



Thanks for all of your help, the insight you have provided to me has been terrific!!!

icesailor

Electric Boiler:

One of the things you MIGHT get by not hiring the cheapest price is someone who might tell you something like this. And I don't care how cheap electric hydro power is in Canada.

If you have a gravity hydronic system, it depends on a lot of water, being heated slowly, to slowly flow through the system. Whether the water is flowing at 10' per minute or 100' per minute, the amount of water in GPM at say 125 degrees always stays the same. It's the flow rate, 1 gallon per minute. If your gravity system holds 50 gallons, you must heat 50 gallons to 125 degrees. You have a high mass system and a high mass heat source, the boiler. If you try to heat the building by changing to a low mass boiler into heating into a high mass system, interesting unintended consequences will occur. A low mass boiler and near piping situation may only have 3 gallons of water.

Have you done or had done an accurate heat loss on the building? If the system was designed 75 years ago, where no insulation was used, and you have improved the building with insulation, new windows and infiltration blocking? The radiation is too big for the application. That's not so bad. But not for a low mass electric boiler.

If you have a 100 amp electric service, you may need 100 amps to run just the boiler. That's a new electric service. Did you factor that in?

If it is cash you are trying to save, if you have oil, the cost of a very high efficient boiler or a gas conversion may be a choice that when you factor all the unforeseen costs of you changing to an electric boiler, will make a payback through perceived savings, not something you will realize in your lifetime.

Maybe you will. But you need someone who understands the broad view of your situation.

Whatever you do, you own it.

Mike Kusiak_2

Low mass

If piped properly, why would it make a difference if a low mass electric boiler was used? How would it be different than a low mass gas modcon?



Both have low water content, and modcon boilers work great with high water content gravity systems, so why would it be a problem if the system was set up properly to provide the proper flow rates to both the boiler and the existing gravity radiators and piping?

icesailor

New System:

Read what I said.

The low bidder may not know how to properly install into this system. A higher bidder may know how and their price may reflect the added costs that may be incurred.

I recently saw a Vitodens installed with the boiler pump on the supply. Veissmann says over and over to pump directly into the return with a boiler pump. Someone did not read the instructions. It takes time and money to read instructions.

Jean-David Beyer

Don't feel awkward asking for references

My former contractor has good references. My new one does too. Mine even has a list of them on their web site.



 Churches and Synagogs

      8 of them.

 Board of Education

      11 of them.

 Federal Agencies

      7 post offices.

 Municipalities

      7 of them.

 Commercial/Industrial

      12 of them.

Non-Profit Organizations

      3 of them.



A good contractor should be proud to give you a list of references, in my opinion as a homeowner, not a contractor.



I am sure they would give me references to individuals as well. I would have given a link to their web site, but that might not be according to Dan's policy; could be construed as advertising by someone who does not pay for the privilege.

lchmb

TV

I watched a show last night where two doctors were giving huge references with big names...Charging people hundreds of thousands of dollars for a cure to disease's. And doing nothing for the people. When the references were checked they had no clue who either of these people were and come to find out neither was legally a doctor. If you dont check, you wont know...IMHO..

sbmfj

so I finally upgraded my system...but still have another q

Hi again,



So I finally got my 2 furnaces (it’s a duplex) upgraded to electric boilers and have been very please with the results. I also had my 2 electric service entries upgraded, as the 2 new boilers required more amperage, they now have 200 amps each. I cant believe that I thought I could buy these furnaces, and then install with a friend of mine who’s a plumber in order to save a few bucks, man was I silly!! The crew that came to do the job used iron pipes cut and threaded to measure on site, and in my opinion did a very good job. And now I also have the service guarantee in case something goes wrong this winter. And to state the obvious, this was a hell of a big job, and the installers worked very hard, and had lots of experience and accrued knowledge. The removal of the old furnaces was also such a huge job, so glad I stayed away from that…



I also conducted a little test; 2 months ago I turned on my old oil “clunker” furnace and timed about how long it took for one of the radiators to get fairly warm to the touch, it took about 45 minutes. New furnace, equipped with a circulator pump (old set up didn’t have one of these), and it seemed to be just as warm in only 20-25 minutes, so Im very happy!!!



Now, I have one last question. As you can see from the pics below, the installers covered up my chimney “hole” with some metal flashing and some sort of sealant behind it (he said it wasn’t silicone but something else), but the chimney on my roof has not been capped. My chimney is not shared with anyone either, it was simply used for my builidng. You can see a pic of my chimney that I took from a pic the home inspector took 8 years ago; my chimney is on the left. The bricks have since been re-pointed, so it’s in a bit better shape than what you see in the pic. My question is how should I cap the roof chimney? Use a stone, or tin/metal as was used in my basement? Do I need to cap it? I think it would be a good move to cap it in order to keep the home warmer?



Let me know guys, Id appreciate any help or feedback.



Ive also typed in a few key word at the bottom of my post, in order to help others who may be undertaking a similar project, as I feel I asked a lot of q’s and they were all answered here, so hopefully this post can help someone else pondering this type of job. ‘



Have a good weekend all!!!









and here's my chimney...













Montreal, hot water heating system, hydronic system, cast iron pipes, circulator pumps, installation