radiant heat and electric usage

Salvatorparadise

Hey guys, we got our frozen up radiant heat system fixed and it's working great. Winter is winding down here in south Central Ohio, but I did have some questions as I begin to plan for a more efficient home for next winter. We didn't move in until Feb so we don't have a big track record yet. But our feb electric bill was about $500 for our drafty, 90-year-old 2,144-square-foot house. That's more than double the approximately $200 gas bill. I wasn't expecting an electric bill this high, rather, I thought radiant heating mainly cost in gas. Are the pumps on these radiant heat systems (we have just one pump) big electricity hogs, and is it typical to have higher electric than gas bills with these systems?



Our house is pretty drafty and w/original windows. We're going to go ape to make the home more efficient next year with weather sealing, plastic over windows, moving the thermostat etc. but the first thing i wondered about was this electric usage issue.



Thoughts?

RobbieDo

One pump

You say one pump you have for a 2100s.f. house? What is the pump, what size is the radiant tube? Give me the amps on the pump, how are you controlling the pump? Thanks

Gordy

electric usage

 A one pump system using a 200 watt pump running 24/7 would cost an extra 18 bucks a month if you are paying 12.5 cents a kilowatt.



 I highly doubt your pump is bigger than that. Or running 24/7. Its possible so if it is then its not accounting for much of the 500.00 bill. Are you sure the boiler is gas, and not electric?  Is your domestic water heater electric?



 You have something else drawing copious amounts of electricity. Electric cloths dryer, old Freezer, Yard lights,



 Is it possible the large bill was an estimated month based on the prior years usage when the previous owners were living in the home?  Your post kind of indicates that you are new to the home. If so they may have been using electric heaters to spot heat rooms last year as you are saying the structure is big, and drafty.

Salvatorparadise

gas throughout

boiler is gas, so is water heater.



Water heater is set pretty hot, but not hot enough to cost that much. Boiler is gas. It's not running 24 hours by any means. I'll put up some in a few photos of the system and pump. I'm going to look when i get home tonight to see if this is an estimate. We aren't running anything else that's drawing a lot of power. Dishwasher every few days, frig, a couple computers, lights in the house which are mostly high efficiency. that's it. So it's either an estimate or error from the heat co or we have some gremlins sucking our power. We did run nine electric space heaters 24x7 in January and the first part of feb when our system was down for major repairs. But this bill is mid feb to mid march, and so shouldn't include that. Those could have something to do with it, though.

Mark Eatherton

You said two different things....

is your ELECTRICITY bill $500.00, or your ELECTRIC and GAS bill $500.00? Big difference.



9 electric heaters, at 1500 watts each, 24 hours per day = (9*1.5*24 = ) 324 KWH



324 * 30 = 9,720 KWH @ $0.12 each = $1,166.00 per month... Obviously, the electric heaters weren't running 24/7/30.



Question is, what was the break down of the $500.00 bill in total?



ME

Salvatorparadise

electric b ill

sorry  for the confusion - i'm referring to the electric bill here...

Mark Eatherton

Gotcha...

Then, unless you have an electric boiler, its not coming from your hydronic heating system.



Spend $30 and buy yourself a Kill A Watt meter and use it to determine where the electric vampire in your home lives...



ME

NRT_Rob

the second bill

is probably estimated value from your january usage. power companies don't usually read your meter every month.

Jean-David Beyer

read your meter every month.

My gas company does read the meter once a month. When they brought gas to my property, they put in a brand new meter that can be read from a passing car. So they just do drive-by readings. I believe they are required to read the meters by looking at them once a year, but I assume they do that in nice weather.



Last year the electric company read read my meter every month except March and April. March was high and April and May were about the same( correct).



I imagine with time, the power company and the water company will be using meters with the same capability to do drive-by readings.

Salvatorparadise

here is my pump

it may be moot at this point, but here is my pump. I'm going to compare the bill with the reading on the meter to see what's up.



Thanks all:

NRT_Rob

wow. wow. wow!!!!

that is a HUGE PUMP. wow!!! I've never seen one that size in a residential application.



First, that CAN'T be properly sized for this system. wow!!!



Second, I have to think it must be a 400 or 500 watt pump??? I can't find specs on its amperage or wattage. So while it is probably not all of the cost increase, I can say it probably is a noticeable amount of power.

Mark Eatherton

You've led a sheltered life Rob...

HV's and Series 100's are a common sight on older systems...



They make GREAT boat anchors....



Wattage on the motor is roughly 240 Watts/hour. (1/6 HP, draws 1.9 amps) Not enough to justify his electrical bill. If it ran 24/30, would be $25.00



ME

Gordy

Come on Rob

 You micro pumper. I got one on my system the HV series 100 also. Very reliable replaced one coupler since I owned the home, and second pump on the system 18 years ago. in 60 years

Gordy

Its the heaters

 Skewing your bill. It was probably an actual reading the month you used the heaters. So then the next month they estimated based on the previous month. Next reading month it will be really low.....Maybe even a rebate. unless your heaters ran into the billing cycle that was estimated.



 This is why I do not like using gas or electric bills to base efficiencies on compared to HDD. The bills get really skewed from estimate to reading month. If they are off on the estimated month, and they usually are. They make it up on the reading month, so then that bill is skewed.



 Where I live the gas, and electric company does actuals every other month, and in the summer the gas co. reads every 2 months.

EricAune

B&G 100

While I wont chastise Rob for his statement, I will say I have never seen one in a house that I didn't replace...



The majority of these circs were way over-sized upon original installation. Kinda the "refrigerator door" sizing method I would guess.

RobbieDo

Amerage

Need to know what the amperage is when things are running in the house. If you suspect there is an issue, the power company will do a evaluation with a chart recorder on your panel. You could also do it yourself if you have a good TRMS amp meter. I think the pump is large but it will never be able to use that many KW to raise the bill that high. Do you have a digital meter or the older type meter on your house, you can chart the meter and see where the power is going also.

Salvatorparadise

mystery solved

mystery solved, it was an estimate. bill went from 4500 kwh in a month to 513



thanks everyone

NRT_Rob

but look at that thing

it's new!!!! or just really well cleaned?



who the heck is using those things these days?



I've seen them on systems from the 70's but never in a modern installation.

Gordy

Rob

 I'm kidding you.  Its kind of like the Kirby Vacum of circulators. Like Mark says they make a heck of a boat anchor!

Mark Eatherton

The proper pump....

I too was gigging you Rob.



The way that most unqualified service techs work, is that if that what was in there, and it worked fine, then that is what you replace it with.



Unless it is Friday @ 6:00 PM, in which case whatever pump you have on your truck will do the trick (temporarily of course) until the warehouses open up again Monday AM.



Makes you wonder how much electricity is wasted annually on pumping alone, don't it??



ME

NRT_Rob

you guys!

joshing me. I have half a mind to... what was I saying??



I didn't even know they still made those things. wild.

CC.Rob

wastage!

Yes indeed, Mark.



In my house, the overpumping yielded an over-electrical consumption of 93%. Upgrading to Alpha went to 12 Watts from 163 Watts. Simply amazing. Simple payback in ~3 heating seasons.

Gordy

Not so bad

 When you get down to it. Its not terrible. If the system averages 4 hours a day run time thats 4.00 a month, or 20.00 a season. Of course ther are more efficient pumps out there though. But its not huge savings unless you are zoning with circs, or running constant circulation. Then it would be 125.00 a season.



Gordy

CC.Rob

yup

Constant circ system. $0.21/kWh. From $140/season to $11.....