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radiant heat and electric usage

Hey guys, we got our frozen up radiant heat system fixed and it's working great. Winter is winding down here in south Central Ohio, but I did have some questions as I begin to plan for a more efficient home for next winter. We didn't move in until Feb so we don't have a big track record yet. But our feb electric bill was about $500 for our drafty, 90-year-old 2,144-square-foot house. That's more than double the approximately $200 gas bill. I wasn't expecting an electric bill this high, rather, I thought radiant heating mainly cost in gas. Are the pumps on these radiant heat systems (we have just one pump) big electricity hogs, and is it typical to have higher electric than gas bills with these systems?



Our house is pretty drafty and w/original windows. We're going to go ape to make the home more efficient next year with weather sealing, plastic over windows, moving the thermostat etc. but the first thing i wondered about was this electric usage issue.



Thoughts?

Comments

  • RobbieDo
    RobbieDo Member Posts: 131
    One pump

    You say one pump you have for a 2100s.f. house? What is the pump, what size is the radiant tube? Give me the amps on the pump, how are you controlling the pump? Thanks
    Rob
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited March 2011
    electric usage

     A one pump system using a 200 watt pump running 24/7 would cost an extra 18 bucks a month if you are paying 12.5 cents a kilowatt.



     I highly doubt your pump is bigger than that. Or running 24/7. Its possible so if it is then its not accounting for much of the 500.00 bill. Are you sure the boiler is gas, and not electric?  Is your domestic water heater electric?



     You have something else drawing copious amounts of electricity. Electric cloths dryer, old Freezer, Yard lights,



     Is it possible the large bill was an estimated month based on the prior years usage when the previous owners were living in the home?  Your post kind of indicates that you are new to the home. If so they may have been using electric heaters to spot heat rooms last year as you are saying the structure is big, and drafty.
  • Salvatorparadise
    Salvatorparadise Member Posts: 16
    gas throughout

    boiler is gas, so is water heater.



    Water heater is set pretty hot, but not hot enough to cost that much. Boiler is gas. It's not running 24 hours by any means. I'll put up some in a few photos of the system and pump. I'm going to look when i get home tonight to see if this is an estimate. We aren't running anything else that's drawing a lot of power. Dishwasher every few days, frig, a couple computers, lights in the house which are mostly high efficiency. that's it. So it's either an estimate or error from the heat co or we have some gremlins sucking our power. We did run nine electric space heaters 24x7 in January and the first part of feb when our system was down for major repairs. But this bill is mid feb to mid march, and so shouldn't include that. Those could have something to do with it, though.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    You said two different things....

    is your ELECTRICITY bill $500.00, or your ELECTRIC and GAS bill $500.00? Big difference.



    9 electric heaters, at 1500 watts each, 24 hours per day = (9*1.5*24 = ) 324 KWH



    324 * 30 = 9,720 KWH @ $0.12 each = $1,166.00 per month... Obviously, the electric heaters weren't running 24/7/30.



    Question is, what was the break down of the $500.00 bill in total?



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Salvatorparadise
    Salvatorparadise Member Posts: 16
    electric b ill

    sorry  for the confusion - i'm referring to the electric bill here...
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Gotcha...

    Then, unless you have an electric boiler, its not coming from your hydronic heating system.



    Spend $30 and buy yourself a Kill A Watt meter and use it to determine where the electric vampire in your home lives...



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • NRT_Rob
    NRT_Rob Member Posts: 1,013
    the second bill

    is probably estimated value from your january usage. power companies don't usually read your meter every month.
    Rob Brown
    Designer for Rockport Mechanical
    in beautiful Rockport Maine.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    read your meter every month.

    My gas company does read the meter once a month. When they brought gas to my property, they put in a brand new meter that can be read from a passing car. So they just do drive-by readings. I believe they are required to read the meters by looking at them once a year, but I assume they do that in nice weather.



    Last year the electric company read read my meter every month except March and April. March was high and April and May were about the same( correct).



    I imagine with time, the power company and the water company will be using meters with the same capability to do drive-by readings.
  • Salvatorparadise
    Salvatorparadise Member Posts: 16
    here is my pump

    it may be moot at this point, but here is my pump. I'm going to compare the bill with the reading on the meter to see what's up.



    Thanks all:
  • NRT_Rob
    NRT_Rob Member Posts: 1,013
    wow. wow. wow!!!!

    that is a HUGE PUMP. wow!!! I've never seen one that size in a residential application.



    First, that CAN'T be properly sized for this system. wow!!!



    Second, I have to think it must be a 400 or 500 watt pump??? I can't find specs on its amperage or wattage. So while it is probably not all of the cost increase, I can say it probably is a noticeable amount of power.
    Rob Brown
    Designer for Rockport Mechanical
    in beautiful Rockport Maine.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    edited March 2011
    You've led a sheltered life Rob...

    HV's and Series 100's are a common sight on older systems...



    They make GREAT boat anchors....



    Wattage on the motor is roughly 240 Watts/hour. (1/6 HP, draws 1.9 amps) Not enough to justify his electrical bill. If it ran 24/30, would be $25.00



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited March 2011
    Come on Rob

     You micro pumper. I got one on my system the HV series 100 also. Very reliable replaced one coupler since I owned the home, and second pump on the system 18 years ago. in 60 years
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited March 2011
    Its the heaters

     Skewing your bill. It was probably an actual reading the month you used the heaters. So then the next month they estimated based on the previous month. Next reading month it will be really low.....Maybe even a rebate. unless your heaters ran into the billing cycle that was estimated.



     This is why I do not like using gas or electric bills to base efficiencies on compared to HDD. The bills get really skewed from estimate to reading month. If they are off on the estimated month, and they usually are. They make it up on the reading month, so then that bill is skewed.



     Where I live the gas, and electric company does actuals every other month, and in the summer the gas co. reads every 2 months.
  • EricAune
    EricAune Member Posts: 432
    B&G 100

    While I wont chastise Rob for his statement, I will say I have never seen one in a house that I didn't replace...



    The majority of these circs were way over-sized upon original installation. Kinda the "refrigerator door" sizing method I would guess.
    "If you don't like change, your going to like irrelevance even less"
  • RobbieDo
    RobbieDo Member Posts: 131
    Amerage

    Need to know what the amperage is when things are running in the house. If you suspect there is an issue, the power company will do a evaluation with a chart recorder on your panel. You could also do it yourself if you have a good TRMS amp meter. I think the pump is large but it will never be able to use that many KW to raise the bill that high. Do you have a digital meter or the older type meter on your house, you can chart the meter and see where the power is going also.
    Rob
  • Salvatorparadise
    Salvatorparadise Member Posts: 16
    mystery solved

    mystery solved, it was an estimate. bill went from 4500 kwh in a month to 513



    thanks everyone
  • NRT_Rob
    NRT_Rob Member Posts: 1,013
    but look at that thing

    it's new!!!! or just really well cleaned?



    who the heck is using those things these days?



    I've seen them on systems from the 70's but never in a modern installation.
    Rob Brown
    Designer for Rockport Mechanical
    in beautiful Rockport Maine.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Rob

     I'm kidding you.  Its kind of like the Kirby Vacum of circulators. Like Mark says they make a heck of a boat anchor!
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    The proper pump....

    I too was gigging you Rob.



    The way that most unqualified service techs work, is that if that what was in there, and it worked fine, then that is what you replace it with.



    Unless it is Friday @ 6:00 PM, in which case whatever pump you have on your truck will do the trick (temporarily of course) until the warehouses open up again Monday AM.



    Makes you wonder how much electricity is wasted annually on pumping alone, don't it??



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • NRT_Rob
    NRT_Rob Member Posts: 1,013
    you guys!

    joshing me. I have half a mind to... what was I saying??



    I didn't even know they still made those things. wild.
    Rob Brown
    Designer for Rockport Mechanical
    in beautiful Rockport Maine.
  • CC.Rob
    CC.Rob Member Posts: 130
    wastage!

    Yes indeed, Mark.



    In my house, the overpumping yielded an over-electrical consumption of 93%. Upgrading to Alpha went to 12 Watts from 163 Watts. Simply amazing. Simple payback in ~3 heating seasons.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Not so bad

     When you get down to it. Its not terrible. If the system averages 4 hours a day run time thats 4.00 a month, or 20.00 a season. Of course ther are more efficient pumps out there though. But its not huge savings unless you are zoning with circs, or running constant circulation. Then it would be 125.00 a season.



    Gordy
  • CC.Rob
    CC.Rob Member Posts: 130
    yup

    Constant circ system. $0.21/kWh. From $140/season to $11.....
This discussion has been closed.