Oil or LPG

my911

We have an old oil fired boiler with at least two (maybe 3) zones.

Replacement for efficiency and maintenance is high on our list.



Is there any fair, enlightening, reliable  comparison between Oil Fired  or LPG for

 * Installation Cost  plus

 * Cost of Operation (Fuel)

 * Maintenance

It seems that LPG fuel costs more, but I've been told

 * Operating Cost is nearly the same or better because the LPG

    unit has outdoor sensors and can "partial fire"

 * Oil requires annual inspection/cleaning/adjustment



Also, someone recommended a

Well McLain WTGO-5 (?)

Is that a reliable unit ? Are there better units?



Almost done - - what efficiency can be expected from the LPG and the Oil versions?



Finally, what was I too dumb to ask about



PS ... the property is in CT ZIP = 06643

Jean-David Beyer

what was I too dumb to ask about

I do not know about dumb, but if a hot water system, you should figure out if it makes sense to use a mod-con boiler or not.

CMadatMe

You forgot

The most important questions. What is the heat loss of my home? Did you compare the heat loss to the existing radiation? Am I able to run my heating system utlizing less than 180 degree water? Water temp relates to efficiency the lower you can run a heating system the more fuel savings you gain. That's why a condensing LP boiler may be the best bet.



The anwsers to these questions would help you in making a decision on what type of boiler to go with. I would go with LP. You have plenty of choices in brands of lp condensing boilers while in oil you are limted to a few.

my911

Thank You for the Reply

As usual, answers spawn more questions.

Here are some

==========

1.  What is the heat loss of my home? Did you
   
   compare the heat loss to the existing radiation?

===========

In some sense, the house is what it is. ... Unless you are suggesting new insulation or something.

I don't understand the 2nd part.

By existing radiation do you mean solar radiation? I don't know how to do that... a local HVAC contractor?



Next is

======

 Am I able to run my

heating system utlizing less than 180 degree water? Water temp relates

to efficiency the lower you can run a heating system the more fuel

savings you gain. That's why a condensing LP boiler may be the best bet.

========

I don't know about 180 deg water.

How to find out?

I've been told that condensing boilers provide 95+% efficiency, but cost twice as much... making payback period longer.



Thanks Chris

my911

Thank You for the Reply

As usual, answers spawn more questions.

Here are some

==========

1.  What is the heat loss of my home? Did you
   
   compare the heat loss to the existing radiation?

===========

In some sense, the house is what it is. ... Unless you are suggesting new insulation or something.

I don't understand the 2nd part.

By existing radiation do you mean solar radiation? I don't know how to do that... a local HVAC contractor?



Next is

======

 Am I able to run my

heating system utlizing less than 180 degree water? Water temp relates

to efficiency the lower you can run a heating system the more fuel

savings you gain. That's why a condensing LP boiler may be the best bet.

========

I don't know about 180 deg water.

How to find out?

I've been told that condensing boilers provide 95+% efficiency, but cost twice as much... making payback period longer.



Thanks Chris

Jean-David Beyer

The most important questions.

The answer to these two questions determine, in large part, whether or not it makes sense to use a condensing boiler. If the radiation is insufficient to heat the house with condensing level water temperatures, the options seem to be to dispense with a condensing boiler, or to increase the radiation size so that condensing temperatures may be used. In other words, more might be involved than just a boiler or fuel change.



I had assumed the o.p. would have to know or calculate his heat losses (for each room), the radiation size in each room, and so on. Also the state of his wallet in case the existing heat emitters had to be replaced or supplemented.



My existing radiation downstairs (in floor radiant) strongly suggested a condensing boiler. Upstairs had baseboard of insufficient size, so I had to forgo condensing there most of the time, or increase the size of the baseboard -- which I did. I have not calculated how long it will take to pay off the cost of the increased baseboard, but it is probably less than the expected life of the baseboard.

CMadatMe

I'll Try

I'll try to make it easier for you to understand. Let's start with, House is what it is?



We need to define what the house needs. Just because it works doesn't necessarily mean it's sized right. A heat loss of the home tells us what size boiler is necessary to heat the home on the coldest day of the year.



Exisiting radiation is the heat emitter of the home. That could be, fin-tube basebard, cast iron baseboard, radiators, etc. It's important because once we know the heat loss we can then compare the capable heat output of those emitters to the heat loss at various water temperatures. This allows us to make the heating system more efficient from a water temperature delivery standpoint.



180 degree water. A standard hydronic heating system uses 180 degree water to heat the home. In standard systems this happens every day of the heating season. The only time you need that is on the coldest day of the year. The rest of the time your just wasting energy. General rule of thumb is that for every three degrees you can run a heating system with below 180 degree water you can save 1% of fuel. So by reducing that water temp you increase savings. It also allows for better comfort.



Any contractor that walks through your door should be doing a heat loss. Without it you are not assured the boiler is the correct size. Bigger is not better. Oversized boilers short cycle. This increases wear and tear which in turn leads to more service and maintenace as well as the cost for replacing parts. It also leads to burning more fuel then necessary.





All of these combined provide the information that you need to make the best decision on where you plan on investing your money. No contractor can tell you a lick about what you will save without doing these steps. Based on existing installations with condensing gas boilers I have been a part of customers are seeing anywhere from a 30-50% fuel savings along with better comfort.



Concerning payback..It's hard with fuel prices going all over the place to give an accurate payback. Look in the driveway. What was the payback on the vehicle you drive when you purchased it?  Comfort, better gas mileage, reliability? It may have been all of them but it never gave you back any dollars. A efficient and properly heating system will provide you savings and better comfort for years to come. 

icesailor

Oil or LPG

If your choice is between oil or LPG, oil is most likely the best choice because there are more BTU's per gallon with oil (139,500 BTU's Per Gallon) Vs LPG (91,000 BTU's per gallon)

I don't know what the size or heat loss of your house but you can heat a lot of house with a WTGO-5 boiler. I have a good size house that I heat with a WTGO-3.

If cost is an issue, and you already have oil, you don't need a new tank. If you are using the Tankless, you can use a storage tank. Many will recommend an indirect. I use storage tanks.

If you are marginal on radiation, you either use hotter water or add more radiation. You can also play with your boiler temperature settings. You only need the really hot water when it is the coldest.

You need an accurate heat loss done. Anyone who looked at your situation and just looked at the old boiler rating and decided you just need a WTGO-5 isn't the one I would hire. You need a heat loss done because I have yet to see a home that was under radiated where the owner wasn't first complaining about being cold when it was cold. You didn't say that.

my911

Thank you for your patiencew

I'll try to make it easier for you to understand. Let's start with, House is what it is?

YES it is a two story residence about 2400-28-- sq ft







We need to define what the house needs. Just because it works doesn't

necessarily mean it's sized right. A heat loss of the home tells us what

size boiler is necessary to heat the home on the coldest day of the

year.

I have no quantitative info, but last year fuel consumption was 850 gal of oil and heating seemed adequate







Exisiting radiation is the heat emitter of the home. That could be,

fin-tube baseboard, cast iron baseboard, radiators, etc. It's important

because once we know the heat loss we can then compare the capable heat

output of those emitters to the heat loss at various water temperatures.

This allows us to make the heating system more efficient from a water

temperature delivery standpoint.

OH . Rooms have fin-tube baseboard. THAT question will be on our list for the local contractor ... earlier I thought "radiation" was inbound solar radiation







180 degree water. A standard hydronic heating system uses 180 degree

water to heat the home. In standard systems this happens every day of

the heating season. The only time you need that is on the coldest day of

the year. The rest of the time your just wasting energy. General rule

of thumb is that for every three degrees you can run a heating

system with below 180 degree water you can save 1% of fuel. So by

reducing that water temp you increase savings. It also allows for better

comfort.

TERRIFIC to know... will definitely add that to our list of questions. I suspect the old antique system in the house now runs 180 degree every day







Any contractor that walks through your door should be doing a heat loss.

Without it you are not assured the boiler is the correct size. Bigger

is not better. Oversized boilers short cycle. This increases wear and

tear which in turn leads to more service and maintenance as well as the

cost for replacing parts. It also leads to burning more fuel then

necessary.

THANK YOU ... will target a RIGHT-SIZED unit











All of these combined provide the information that you need to make the

best decision on where you plan on investing your money. No contractor

can tell you a lick about what you will save without doing these steps.

Based on existing installations with condensing gas boilers I have been a

part of customers are seeing anywhere from a 30-50% fuel savings along

with better comfort.

Does that apply to either Oil or LPG?...because that is a fundamental decision we have to make







Concerning payback..It's hard with fuel prices going all over the place

to give an accurate payback. Look in the driveway. What was the payback

on the vehicle you drive when you purchased it?  Comfort, better gas

mileage, reliability? It may have been all of them but it never gave you

back any dollars. A efficient and properly heating system will provide

you savings and better comfort for years to come.

Oh, Dear ....I know how frail those can be, but DIRECTIONALLY/HISTORICALLY some insight is hoped for....for instance a review of fuel bills showed a 33% increase in fuel cost from 2009 to 2010. I'm willing to take TODAY as a mark and project forward assuming no changes in fuel prices. . It seems the decisions are two

 * Standard Efficiency(?) vs HIGH Efficiency at 2X install cost

 * LPG vs. OIL



Your reply has been very helpful.

Thank you.