expands

Paul Fredricks_3

when water turns to steam at atmospheric pressure it expands 700 times it's size.



What about refrigerants? And in a condenser, when the refrigerant turns back into a liquid, how much does it's size reduce?



Just thinking. Maybe too much.

Techman

expands

Hi Paul I beleave that is 1700 times expansion for water to steam and I too have wondered about the freon rate of expansion

Paul Fredricks_3

oh

yeah 1700

Brad White

Specific Volume Equation

Now you are having me dig out the old books...



As you know, the specific volume (CF/lb, M^3/kg, however expressed), of any gas is a function of its pressure (and incidental temperature, which in refrigerants go especially hand-in-hand).



From my tables...



For steam, at 0 psig (atmospheric, saturated condition), the water state is 0.016715 CF/lb. and steam vapor at the same pressure is 26.78 CF/lb. This is an increase of 1670.8. close enough to the 1700 factor.



At 2 psig, this ratio drops to 1419.7 and at 100 psig, drops to 218. Steam specific volume at 100 psig is 3.8925 cubic feet per lb. compared to 26.78 at atmospheric pressure, so you can see how fast steam will travel when released.



I will let the good professor speak to refrigerants. They are all different of course and I am curious about the correlation now myself.

Paul Fredricks_3

OK

In the condenser coil the pressure is what the pressure is. May question may not matter because the pressure...is what it is. I'm wondering if the refrigerant changing to a liquid causes the pressure to be less? I figure it must which is why the pressure rises if you block the coil: Less refrigerant changes state. Of course it's also hotter which causes more expansion of the gas. Maybe both are to blame.



I have a headache.

RDSTEAM

pressure will drop

when it hits the metering device, thats what causes your liquid refrigerant to begin to boil.

Paul Fredricks_3

yeah

got that. I'm talking about in the condenser only.

Techman

Paul I have an asprin.

Professor SILBERSTEIN TO THE RESCUE , i HOPE! I think that there is a pressure drop at the  condensing stage,but in a system that is on ,it's kinda fed  a steady diet of new freon  & until the load drops  and  then there's a little less diet  so ,less pressure on my gauges. I think  ! And I also think you are right about them being connected ,the good old P/T or T/P chart

Paul Fredricks_3

Just thinking

Maybe too much. Non condensables in the system keep the high side pressure up, not because they are hot, but because they don't condense. So the pressure doesn't drop due to change of state, from gas to liquid, because there isn't a change of state.



That probably answers my question. For now.



Thanks everyone.

jp_2

no change of state, no cooling

how can you have cooling if the refrigerant doesn't change state?



isn't that what its all about, going from a liquid to gas?

Paul Fredricks_3

yeah

except I was talking about the condenser. Of course, if it doesn't condense, no liquid to later vaporize and cool.

Techman

expands

The non-condensibles do not condense ,the freon still does condense,@ a higher temp/press and @ a higher cost. Water ( one lb ) @ 211* needs only 1btu to go to 212* water then it needs 970 btu to change to 212* steam. What is the freon rate of expansion?

jp_2

whats a non condensible ?

in a cooling system?

Techman

Stuff

like air &nitrogen left in a system or letting the air in ur hoses get into the system.

RDSTEAM

what is it

that you are trying to solve?? are you just wondering what the expansion rates are or are you problem solving a system.

jp_2

rate of expansion

I would guess the rate of expansion for the freon, practically speaking would be instantaneous.  unless it had a rather large back pressure to deal with.



I've always wanted to know the force of expansion, water to ice.   ice breaks a lot of stuff.

Paul Fredricks_3

No

Just thinking out loud...or out web. Just trying to think like refrigerant. Kind of like trying to think like steam to get a better idea of the inner workings of a steam system.

Tom Blackwell_2

ideal gas

Refrigerant gasses behave as an ideal gas, i believe; that is they will expand to the ratio of the absolute temperature ratio. The gas leaving the compressor is heated by the heat of compression and by the motor in a hermetic compressor. In a condenser coil, the pressure is that point at which the gas turns into a liquid. This would be the condensing temperature, and the pressure would correspond to the saturation temperature of the refrigerant. If non-condensables are present, then the pressure will be higher than the saturation point, but this would be evident only if accurate temperatures are known. The amount of charge in the system determines how much of the condenser coil is filled up with liquid and can be measured by the amount of liquid subcooling. If the coil had no stored liquid, then the liquid temperature would be the same as the condensing temperature. The amount of liquid subcooling has a great effect in the capacity of the metering device, particularly capillary tubes. My apology for the rambling nature of this post-just tying strings of thought togrther.