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New near boiler piping needed

Epeter
Epeter Member Posts: 25
I want to replace the near boiler piping and would like some advice.

If you can take a look at my past postings you can see photos etc.

Should I try a drop header?

Can I use a header drip line and an equalizer?

Comments

  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    Questions

    Hi - I’m on the road traveling and must have missed your last post. Your present piping and the location/ orientation of your boiler makes the solution a bit complex. I have some questions and have attached one of your pictures with notes.  On question #3 I’m trying to determine the location of Pipe “Z”  as it is related to your boiler  as it is hard to determine from the pictures.



    In a previous message you mentioned that the slope of th pipe “Z” is in the direction of the green arrow. Pipe “H” therefore won’t drain the pipe “Z”.

    Questions:

    1. What size are Pipe “A” and Pipe “B”?

    2. What is the size of pipe “Z”?

    3, If you draw a  line (“X” “Y”  ) parallel to Pipe “Z”, directly under pipe “Z”, what is the length of “W” ?   (”W” is the distance from imaginary line “XY” to the center of the boiler port)



    4.What is the make and model of your boiler?

    5. Do you have the Installation manual for your boiler ?

    6. Does your boiler have more than one steam port ?

     

    Let us know the answers as then we’ll have a better idea as to what is feasible.

    - Rod
  • Epeter
    Epeter Member Posts: 25
    New near boiler piping needed

    Rod hi,

    Slant Fin GX 175 EZ. One 2.5in tapping.

    So B is 2.5 and A,Z are 2".

    H is 1.25 which is the same as the wet return.

    The center line of the boiler port is 2" off of line XY.

     I want to get rid of the back pitched header. I am thinking that it was not back pitched with the old boiler as the equalizer was where I put the new one.

    There was no other equalizer.



    As the family is in Plumbing supply and I am doing the labor I want to do it right. I will go as far as needed for a super job.

    What do you think about a drop header and two tees one for each main?

    Right now I have 22.5 inch center to center from the tapping to the equalizer.

    I can grab another 12 inches before I hit the gas line for the hot water heater.

    Thanks so much for your help.
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    edited March 2011
    Possible Configuration

    Thanks for the info . The “W” measurement to the header was less than I thought. I’m not sure if you can take the boiler riser straight up though there is nothing saying the riser can’t be slightly angled if necessary .  Attached is one of your photos with a possible header configuration. The yellow dotted line represents the boiler riser and the extension to the header. I had to draw it this way otherwise it looks confusing  Slantfin specifies a 2 ½ inch header, the same as the exit riser coming out of the boiler though you might want to use a 3 inch header. This configuration now slopes to ward the wall but could be mirrored just by changing the slope and moving the intake and equalizer to opposite ends. As you ‘re rather cramped on the sight glass side of the boiler I thought that maybe it would help to run the equalizer on the wall side. The high steam riser coming out of the boiler should give you very dry steam.  In either case you would have to move your wet return attachment to the Hartford Loop.  Also attached are a couple pictures of high headers done by Steamhead, who always does excellent piping. I thought it might be beneficial to see how a high header can be laid out.

    - Rod
  • Epeter
    Epeter Member Posts: 25
    thanks

    Rod thanks so much will study tonite....
  • Epeter
    Epeter Member Posts: 25
    header

    Rod thanks again,



    If I do not have the space can I offset the riser (from the boiler tapping)? Is there a minimum nipple legnth on the supply (sight glass side) side of the header (left of the tee in the pix)?

    Thanks again!! will post finished photos!!!!

    You are the man!!!!!!
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    Header Configuration

    From looking at manufacturer's diagrams and pictures of pro installations, there  doesn't seem to be any minimums to the header length between the connection of the riser coming from the boiler and the connection of the  riser going up to the steam mains. However a bit of distance between them makes sense as it would allow water to settle out of the steam steam a bit before going up to the mains.

    Glad to help out though I'm just passing along what I've learned from Dan's great steam books and from the knowledge the steam pros on the "wall"  generously share with us. They are the ones who really deserve the credit!

    - Rod
  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,398
    Jeez, Rod

    You are on the road and do more with your left hand than I do with both in a week.

    Amazing.

    What an asset you are to this site.
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    Thanks Brad!

    Coming from you that is a great compliment!

    - Rod
  • Epeter
    Epeter Member Posts: 25
    equalizer

    Rod,



    What if I use the existing header fed from the left (with a 6" nipple added) with the high riser you show with the dotted line; and use the right side for the equalizer heading back to the Hartford loop. It was the supply side. Or does the equalizer need to go straight down right away?

    Also on the feed you show the last section at a 45....any reason not to use all 90's?
  • Epeter
    Epeter Member Posts: 25
    equalizer

    Rod,



    What if I use the existing header fed from the left (with a 6" nipple added) with the high riser you show with the dotted line; and use the right side for the equalizer heading back to the Hartford loop. It was the supply side. Or does the equalizer need to go straight down right away?

    Also on the feed you show the last section at a 45....any reason not to use all 90's?
  • Epeter
    Epeter Member Posts: 25
    whoops

    Rod,



    Sorry I forgot the existing is 2" and I need a minimum of 2.5 so...sawsall and sledge here i come! Now a little liquid nitrogen on those old fittings and they would crack like glass.

    anyone ever do it?
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    Header & Equalizer

    Hi -  Edit - I wrote this late last night before you posted that you caught the problem with the header pipe sizing . Good for you!



    Header Size  - In your March 7 post you mentioned that the present pipe (“Z”)  which you are now proposing to use as a “header” , was 2 inches and that the riser “B” coming out of the boiler was 2 ½ inches.

    If you kept the present (2 inch) pipe as a header it would be smaller that the steam pipe (2 ½  inch) coming into it.  This would increase the velocity just as you would  do by putting your finger over the end of a garden hose when you want a spray. The concept of the header is to produce  “dry steam”  by  allowing the water carried up with the steam from the boiler to precipitate to the bottom of the horizontal header pipe and be returned to the boiler via the equalizer pipe. Ideally you increase the size of the header a pipe size larger (to 3 inches) as this slows down velocity of the steam stream as it passes through the header which greatly helps in the precipitation.  Dry steam is much more efficient than wet steam and causes less problems.



    A 2 ½ inch header (per the Slantfin diagram) while not theoretically ideal ,would still probably work okay. However reducing the sizing from a boiler riser size of 2 ½ inches to 2 inch header would be definitely detrimental.  Perhaps cross section area figures below give a better idea of the situation.



    Internal area

    2 inch pipe    3.141 sq inches

    2 ½ inch pipe 4.908 sq inches

    3 inch pipe   7.068 sq inches



    If it were me I’d go with the 3 inch header.  Staying with the 2 inch header I doubt if you would see much improvement over what you have now.



    Equalizer Pipe - In his books, Dan suggests a minimum of 1 ½inch pipe on the equalizer for most residential boilers.  The equalizer pipe can slant from the header end though it needs to go to the vertical above the waterline before the wet return connects to it.  

    The equalizer needs to be pitched so that it drains quickly and  COMPLETELY  Using 90 degree elbows (other than the one on the end of the header)  in the above the waterline section needs to be avoided as you don’t want to create any place where water could collect as this would cause the steam to collapse and result in water hammer. Leaving the header, use a reducing elbow or a regular elbow followed by a  bell reducer to transition to 1 ½ inch pipe. (See this link for an example -

     http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/articles/1343/288.pdf   ) Don’t use a reducer bushing as this would create a pocket where water would  collect. Note in the photos of the installations  by Steanmhead that the pipe size of the header wasn't reduced until half way down the equalizer.

     As I mentioned in an earlier post, the way your boiler is located/ oriented, makes the piping a bit awkward  but if you pay attention to pipe sizing and smooth flow of the condensate, it should work fine.

    - Rod
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,785
    edited March 2011
    I Second That....

    Not only does Rod provide a tremendous amount of help and advice, but he always does it with a pleasant and helpful attitude.  That can be difficult, I know.



    I love this site, and found myself getting more and more involved, trying to share my knowledge and help folks who posted questions.  I must say, that I found myself becoming wrapped up in somewhat of a competition with a handful of the other fantastic posters such as Jamie, Crash, Jpf, and many more.  Eventually, I found myself getting quite cranky and irritated with some of the questions posted.  So, I forced myself to take some time off so I would not start spewing insults, and turn this great site into a typical gutter blog.



    One of the things that I found quite troublesome is when an installing contractor comes to the site and basically reveals, by his questions, that he doesn't have a clue what he is doing, and basically job gets designed via the help provided here.  I asked myself, would I want this guy putting my boiler in?  My first thought was Heck No!  Then it occurred to me, if I was an unknowing homeowner, I would certainly be better served by the contractor who came to this site so that he could try and get it right, as compared to the contractor that doesn't have a clue, and does not come to the site, and installs a totally botched up mess.



    My hat is off to all you guys that do such a great job and make this site work so well.
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • Epeter
    Epeter Member Posts: 25
    45 degree?

    Rod,



    Last question....you show a 45 degree down slope where the supply meets the header.

    do you want me to use this method ?
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    Equalizer Routing

    Hi - Actually I was leaving the configuration/location of the Equalizer /Hartford Loop up to you as from the pictures I can’t tell clearances and/or offsets so therefore I don’t know what would be the most practical routing. The suggestion of the sloped equalizer was just to illustrate what could be done and not necessarily a suggestion to do it this way.



    Standing in front of the water sight glass facing the boiler, the old Hartford Loop connection is near the right front corner. This obviously would have to be moved. Using the sloped equalizer it might be possible to move the connection to the back corner on the right side though I have no way of judging whether this is actually practical.

    Ideally you would just drop the equalizer straight down and make the wet return connection there which would put it somewhere near the back left hand corner of the boiler. From what I can see you would then have to turn the tee, under the sight glass, 90 degrees downward and run the lower boiler return to the left rear corner to meet the equalizer. (See attached modified picture)

    Use full sized plugged tees at strategic locations in place of elbows as this will facilitate periodic clean out of the lower piping.

    From the pictures I can’t tell exactly what the copper piping connected to the boiler on the sight glass side pertains to so haven’t taken this into consideration.

    - Rod
  • Epeter
    Epeter Member Posts: 25
    Rod

    Rod  hey,



    Sorry I was not clearer, I was questioning the supply from the boiler to the header.

    Dotted line on left side of photo shows 45 to feed the header from the boiler riser.
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    Header Extension

    Sorry for the confusion.  It’s hard to draw clearly a pipe at that angle on a photo which is why I tried using the dotted line instead.

      The pipe you are referring to is an extension of the header. It is the same size pipe as the “cross header” (“cross header “ = the pipe the mains are attached to) and is attached to the “cross header” using a 90 degree elbow.  The whole header (extension and cross “header” ) slopes slightly (1 inch in 10 ft)  towards the equalizer pipe so that the water that precipitates out of the steam  stream will drain off  The idea of the extension is to allow a bit more horizontal header distance for the water to settle out of the steam before the steam stream goes vertical into the short risers up to the mains



    The steam riser from the boiler to the header can either connected to the header using a top entry as drawn in the photo or an end entry as in the photos of the high riser boilers. With the odd routing angles involved, the top entry may give you more flexibility in connecting the two pipes.



    When thinking out the installation, you might also want to consider where you want to place pipe hangers and unions to help you put the piping together.

    Have a good weekend!

    - Rod
This discussion has been closed.