oil usage

bob eck

my sisters house 2300 sq ft 10 years old. heater with oil boiler low mass trianco (larras) with 40 gallon indirect triangle tube SS water heater one zone, radiant in 4" concrete slab for the two car garage second zone plus 3/4 rest of the house radiant also in concrete third zone plus family room with coper baseboard fourth zone.

location Eastern Pennsylvania Lehighton and I know this winter was a cold one.

brother-in-law said he used 700 - 750 gallons of oil.

boiler is piped with 4 zones and the radiant and copper baseboard zone are controlled only by a thermostat. circulator for each zone pumping away from the expansion tank on the supply side of the boiler. NO bypass on the boiler. They claim the boiler runs on and off all the time real shot runs.

Radiant has insulation under it.

Brother-in-law did say he was running thermostat at 62* F day and 68*F night. I told him to set the thermostat at 68*F and leave it there.

What can be done to improve the oil usage?F

Wants to install a system 2000 oil boiler. thinks he can cut oil usage big time with this boiler.

Input please

Brad White

A few thoughts

I am not sure what the period was when the oil was burned, but the past 12 months at Allentown AP logged 5260 Heating Degree Days.



At an assumed 65% efficiency and a 6 degree F. outdoor design temperature, if the oil was total for the year, I get a building heat loss (back-calculated) of about 55000 BTUH. This works out to just under 24 BTUH per SF, which is respectable and consistent with a ten year old house for heating alone. With domestic water thrown in, the heating numbers look better. Not saying you should be satisfied, but just a point of comparison.



To improve any single-temperature hot water system, outdoor reset (ODR) has the single greatest payback in my experience. The key is to divorce the boiler from the distribution such that your distribution can be modulated deeply, cooler water when it is warmer outside. The reason you want to separate the boiler from the distribution is that the boiler cannot see cooler temperatures below 130F for oil fired equipment, whereas the heating distribution should be able to take it down to nearly room temperature on the return side, as an ideal.



Point being, you want the ability to adjust it to the least temperature which will heat the house.



The boiler would receive its own ODR control but this will limit the boiler temperature from a high of say 180F down to the 130-140F range on milder days. You also want to be able to boost the temperature for making domestic HW.



I would start there. If you are slated to replace the boiler, work with the manufacturer and installer to wring out the best efficiency you can, by appropriate control and piping arrangements. Do that if replacement is imminent (and sized to the heat loss!), rather than invest in a re-piping of the existing.



My $0.02



Brad

icesailor

Oil Usage

It's my experience that a lot of folks have a hard time understanding the difference between gallons used and the price per gallon for the oil used.

2 gallons per day on an annual basis is pretty good use. How many gallons per year do you think that you could save/squeeze out of this system? How much money do you think you will save per year? How much will the costs of the "improvements" cost?

No one has successfully convinced me that setback thermostats do not save me considerable cash. When a zone in my home (built in 2001), when it is 10 degrees out, and will not drop from the high (68') to the low (58') in 8 hours (59.5), and recovers in less than 50 minutes, the set back thermostats work. It's tweaked but the ideas I have for further tweaking will never be paid back and wouldn't add to the comfort level.

I think that the system under discussion is quite reasonable in gallon usage. Look at the gallons used, not the cost. You/we are getting screwed on costs by the energy companies. We can't get away from that.

Brad White

Exactly

I get lots of calls from clients and friends about oil consumption going through the roof, but it is always coincident to a spike in price. No one sees gallons, just the dollars.



Nor does anyone say, "my oil usage has dropped!" when the price goes down.



One has to be gentle, but in this and another thread, I could set out that the consumption was in fact reasonable or at least in line with expectations. It is not what they want to hear.



"The good news is, you have a very efficient system of the type and your house is tighter than most. The bad news is, you are paying a lot regardless and there is not a lot of room for you to improve it economically". 



Immediate elation with the good news, followed by depression.

Ask your doctor if Zoloft is right for you.

Robert O'Brien

Brad

Would you mind sharing the formula to calculate heat loss from fuel consumption and degree days?



Thanks!!

Robert O'Brien

Price vs gallons

That is a common people issue,another is square footage,don't take their word for it,they lie! I guess everyone wants to believe theirs is really bigger than it is!

george_42

Why not try gas

Maybe you should explore the possibility of switching to gas . I did that last year and bills are very low and the fuel is clean and always there. The gas company will usually run the gas to your home for free if it is anywher close to you , check it out , GEORGE

george_42

Why not try gas

Maybe you should explore the possibility of switching to gas . I did that last year and bills are very low and the fuel is clean and always there. The gas company will usually run the gas to your home for free if it is anywher close to you , check it out , GEORGE

Jean-David Beyer

Comparing apples with oranges.

I ran oil for many years. For the years I have the figures, I averaged 469.1 gallons for heating the house here in New Jersey with about 1100 square feet floor space. The cost averaged $1612/year.



I then switched to gas, but I switched from an old GE boiler to a W-M Ultra 3 Mod|con with outdoor reset. For the last 12 month, I spent $636.59 for heat and (indirect) hot water. Previously, hot water was electric. I seem to use about 100 therms per month in December, January, and February, 50 in November and March, and much less the other months.



I do not know how much of the savings are due to lower gas rates, and how much were due to higher efficiency of the heating system. But ignoring the cost of conversion, I am saving about half at today's prices.

bob eck

oil usage

no natural gas available or I would put in a triangle tube prestige boiler.



what I thought of doing is installing a 50 or 80 gallon solar water heater tank. run the boiler water thru the coil in the tank and store the water at 180* F and use that water to go out to the radiant and baseboard with outdoor reset. have a regular zone at 180*F just for the indirect water heater. doing it this way the boiler will not experience low water temps coming back into it. Plus when the boiler is needed to heat up the tank the boiler will run longer and stop it from short cycling.

will this work?

CMadatMe

Finish the Race

Bob,



If your going to go to that extent why not just convert to LP. Use the Prestige and add the solar. You could have the solar take care of the heating until the muscle days where the Prestige picks up the slack.

Brad White

If I told you...

I would have to...



oh heck, Robert. I would spare you!



I will send it to you in a spreadsheet form. We can chat off-line.



Brad

icesailor

Gas/Oil in NJ:

I think a careful analysis of NJ and gas prices will show the gas utilities are selling gas at what it is costing them or slightly lower. While they wipe out the competition of oil in large easy to service areas. If there aren't enough customers, they will leave it to LP and oil. Once the competition is wiped out, prices will go back to where they belong. It used to be priced on the basis of the heat content. Now, it is a derivative commodity, traded for its value and ease of manipulating it for profit. Oil and LP will always be the same. It's just that a majority of people think that LP gas is Natural Gas.

If you are considering converting to LP Gas from Oil, remember, you will use more gallons of LP gas in a year than you do oil. 139,000 BTU per gallon for oil Vs 91,000 BTU for LP. All the energy in the world is owned by a few energy conglomerates. The price is "Fixed" by the commodities traders. We get screwed. 

Jean-David Beyer

Gas prices in New Jersey.

IceSailor: do you know how gas rates are decided in New Jersey? (I do not.) My latest gas bill, for 99.09 Therms is:



Basic Gas Service $73.92

Delivery                $52.33

Customer Charge   $ 8.25

Total                    $134.50



Are you saying that the gas I used cost them about $73.92? Or are you saying that the gas they sold me cost them about $134.50? (Not just what they paid for it, but what it cost them to deliver it to me and bill me for it.)



They must buy the gas from somebody, since I do not know that we have a lot of active gas wells in NJ, and that costs them something.. Perhaps they are entitled a small profit on that. And they must have a lot of capital invested in their transmission systems, and they need a suitable return on that investment. Furthermore, they must do maintenance on their distribution system, and need to charge for that. I suppose the $8.25/month should cover the cost of providing a meter and billing me.



If I had an oil well and my choice was to flare off the methane that nobody wants, or to sell it to NJNG, I would pick the latter. Cheaper for me than paying the fines the DEP would impose if I were to flare it off on purpose. So these days, I imagine there is a surplus of N.G. in USA, though not as much as formerly. In places like Nigeria, they just flare it off as no one wants it. More climate change.

Mark N

Gas Price In NJ

The price I for natural gas in NJ from PSE&G started to fall right around the time I started to get offers in the the mail from Constellation Energy to sell me natural gas at a price slightly lower than PSE&G's price. Nothing like a little competition to drop the price. Its been $1.15 per therm all winter including service charge.

Jean-David Beyer

PSE&G's price. Its been $1.15 per therm all winter including service charge.

Wow. NJNG is $1.3574/therm for me, including gas, delivery, and service charge.

icesailor

Gas Prices/Loss Leaders

From what I understand, Natural Gas in New Jersey is cheaper than surrounding states. Same gas, same source. The gas is owned by energy conglomerates who own the wells and sell the gas to energy conglomerates who distribute the gas.

It's a matter of marketing. I hope you understand the concept. Wal-Mart decides to move into an area. There are many locally owned hardware stores. They will build stores to compete with these local stores and sell way lower than normal costs to get the business. Once the local stores close, they close the original store or leave it and raise the prices to normal mark up/profit margins.

It's Marketing 101. They used to call this "Bait And Switch" but no more. It is legal now for a corporation to do anything it wants to make a profit.

Once the competition is gone in the areas they want to serve, you will see the prices start to creep up. It's called "De-Regulation". It's supposed to be good for all of us, increase competition, and lower prices. 

Sure it does.

Gas Futures are financial instruments to the investment banks on Wall Street led by the Banksters. We are like lambs to the slaughter to them. They own us.

Mark N

PSE&G

PSE&G isn't exactly new to NJ they've been here for like 100 yrs. IN the area I live in most people use gas probably well over 95% been that way for years. All that I know is that over the last three years the price I pay for commodity portion of my bill has dropped $.44 per therm and the distribution charge has gone up $.02 per therm.

BobC

$1.93 / therm in Boston

As of Jan 18, 2011 the cost for natural gas in Boston was $1.93 per therm which is equivalent to $2.70 for a gallon of oil (my dealer was getting about $3 a gallon then)



Oil right now is $3.46 per gallon if your lucky. I'd like to make those commodity traders drink a gallon of #2.



Talk about getting shafted!



Bob

Steamhead

Does that price per therm

include all the taxes and fees that appear in very small print so you aren't likely to notice them? 

CMadatMe

Brad

Share the wealth...Would love of a copy of that spreadsheet. Thanks..

Mark N

Tax

The price I gave of $1.15 a therm was the total price of the gas I used divided by the therms used. Its been the same price the last 3 months. I checked my mothers bill and hers also came out to the same price. There are no taxes or fees on my gas or electric bill. I checked my water bill and there are no taxes on that also. Maybe the tax is built into the rate, don't know.

BobC

Actual cost of gas.

That is the total bill divided by the number of therms. When they try to get you to switch all they talk about is the cost of natural gas, when you ask them about delivery and service charges they get very quiet.



When my 15 year old oil fired V75 bites the dust I'll take a look at gas but not till then because it would take a long time to earn the conversion cost back. With my luck the boiler would keel over the month after I had the work done.



Bob