Can't touch this - not even going to try

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)

 General contractor is remodeling a kitchen and breakfast area for a friend who asked me to look over the heating issues his sub is proposing. So, I asked the friend some pertinent questions & he went to the builder who had his sub call me. They currently have a steam boiler & the rads in these two areas will be going away.



Absolutely clueless. Could not answer a single one of my questions except for the size of the water heater & heat emitters.



Has no clue as to how to measure their chimney either and I can tell you that if it's a standard 8" x 8" terra cotta flue, it is not capable of adding that third load to ensure safe venting of carbon monoxide.   



Heat source? 40-gallon gas chimney-vented water heater. 



It's efficiency? Doesn't know. 



Manual-J heat loss. No. 



Type of heat emitters? Baseboard and two toe-kick fan-assisted heaters under the kit cabinets. (FYI: two toe-kick fan-assisted heaters is totally out of whack for that postage-stamp-sized kitchen space.) How do he know how much to install??? 



Operating temperature of the system? Not sure, but thinks it will be 140 - 160F. 



Projected annual operating costs? No clue. 



Circulator & controls? Not sure, but probably a Taco 007 & relay. (This will be oversized and waste energy too.)  



Run hours? No clue 



Power usage? No clue



 Life cycle costs? No clue 



Have you measured the chimney? No 



Will there be sustained flue gas condensation in the water heater during operation? No clue (I have yet to see one used in this manner that doesn't have this issue.) 



Also said he considered using electric resistance heating! 



Claims he's had training with Fujitsu mini-split inverter heat pumps, yet could not answer a few basic questions regarding their performance in cold weather.

 

Nope - can't touch this!  



FYI: I did crunch the numbers. Compared to a well-designed high-efficiency system, the energy wasted comes to $1.53 per square foot per year! Multiply that by the square footage of the project, gather up the cash - and then burn it in the fireplace. Add 5% for each new year & repeat.

jim s_2

Sounds like a nightmare

Why doesn`t your friend insist on using your company instead?

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)

convinced

They're friends with the general contractor who says the sub is top notch and that his heating systems work. Some friend. I gave them my information and the energy wasted $ amount. I've done my due diligence as a friend and advisor. Bear in mind, I was only asked to review the sketchy info & it was the sub who revealed the sub-par system info when I spoke with him late today.



Local supply house branch manager does a lot of hand-holding with the sub from what I discovered this afternoon. He does that frequently for a number of contractors after selling them high-efficiency products they cannot start-up and/or adjust & provides the combustion analyzer too while performing the analysis for free. Gee - thanks for selling me my rather expensive combustion testing equipment that I'm maintaining at my costs while performing this free service for contractors who don't bother obtaining training and the equipment. No problem mate, I can purchase at other more loyal suppliers.       

EddieG

Sad....

Sad but true. I see guys around here that hand blueprints to wholesalers all the time. I often ask the contractor what are going to do if the system doesn't work? After I get the, What do you mean? They usually say, there the pro's. Then I ask the wholesaler the same question and get the same reply. Then I ask if they will go to court, when the homeowner gets the lawyers?????? These people eat, sleep, and breathe among us!

icesailor

Can't Touch This:

It's more the fault of the "contractor, hiring someone that is cheap and not that bright. Some of these "contractors" think that they are experts in all disciplines. The sub is cheap and fast or cheap and fast because he doesn't use a lot of stuff to run up the price on the job.

Steamhead

Kitchen and bathroom designers are the worst

If they see a radiator they want to pull it out. They know absolutely nothing about heating. That's why so many kitchens and bathrooms are cold.



It's almost always possible to find radiators of a different shape that will fit an available space and give off the proper amount of heat. But these slackers don't even want to try.

CMadatMe

Wholesalers

Eddie,



I'm on the wholesale side. Do heat losses/designs off prints all the time. I'll stand by my work every time. Haven't been bit once in over 20 plus years. Isn't it one of our responsibilities to contractors to help provide them with the tools and education that is necessary to keep up with the products and systems we sell them?  You didn't just wake up one morning and have all the knowledge you have. Someone provided you the opportunity or outlet to learn.



As for the manager with the analyzer. I don't agree with that. I wouldn't have a problem with him selling a contractor an analyzer and then going to a job to assist them provided he has attended the necessary training that that mfg requires but to just provide it as a service isn't helping anyone. Especially his customer.

Wayco Wayne_2

You said it Frank

I just had one of those last week. They want to take out an old gravity system cast iron rad and put in a stylish European radiator. I ask them what water temps are you sizing it for. ....Blank stare..... I size them for 140 degrees. Most charts don't even go that low. I turned this job around and sold them some more radiant floor since the addition they were also building will have RF when it's done. I'll keep snatching rooms from the original house and sell them on mo radiant floors. Once you have the boiler repiping already done, it doesnt cost much to add another loop or two to the manifolds.