Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.

Oil mist in blast tube? Time for LRFB?

Have a Peerless WBV-04 currently setup with a Delevan .85gph 80* nozzle, per the energey star specs on their site. However about once a month there is hard soot building up on the nozzle and electrodes and shutting down the system. Draft is .03" and it is running well otherwise. When the system has shut down I have seen a small amount of oil mist in the lad tube, not much but enough so it looks as though it may have sucked some back. Most literature says for this firing the low rate baffle should be used, but is not indicated by Peerless. Any ideas on what it might be or other areas to check. More than likely will just upgrade to their specific 1.10 hago B nozzle, but the oil consumption of the delevan is excellent and meeting all the heating needs, so I would like to keep the original size. thank you for any assistance.

Comments

  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
    couple question

    I dont believe increasing the firing rate will solve your problem. If your unit is not condensing from the firing rate it has and has no issue's keeping up, it may actually make matter's worse with short cycling.

    Couple other questions, what's it over fire draft? Do you have a cutoff pump or delay valve on the system? Is it cutting off properly?  What type of control does it have? Does it have interrupted ignition? Having an F head have you checked to make sure it is set properly? And have you made sure the F head is clear?
  • bill nye_3
    bill nye_3 Member Posts: 307
    edited February 2011
    Not sure

    Oil mist in blast tube? Time for LRFB?



    Not sure what that means? How old is this burner/boiler? and when was it serviced last?i.e. Nozzle, filter , strainer, brush and vac?

    Does the primary control keep the igniter on during the complete run cycle, or does it drop out after 30sec. ?

    Does the end cone or retention head have a carbon build up that the nozzle spray could be impinging on? Is the nozzle "loose" in the nozzle adapter?

    Does it have delayed ignition caused by a weak ignition transformer? What is the pump pressure set for? Many things could be the cause, an experienced oil technician should be able to find the problem in a few minutes. Probably less time than it took me to type this with one finger.

    edit, is it a "F" head or a "L" head
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
    Hi Bill

    If memory serves me right the WBV only come's through spec'd with the F-4 head. It has 2 firing rates and both are set at 140psi. I'm wondering how he know's he's getting an oil mist in the air tube...
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    sounds like

    the burner is not pitched towards the chamber. Common Beckett issue. All that was mentioned above needs to be checked. Also sounds like the flame is floating away. Pump pressure, "Z" dimension, excess air, plugged filters, etc, will do it every time.
  • cwilliams2000
    cwilliams2000 Member Posts: 140
    Specs

    The boiler is 8 years old. The burner is completely new, old setup was the same afg but running a 1.25gph and was wasting heat and short cycling. New burner, transformer, cleancut pump. Pump checked at 140psi, gaskets and seals all new and working.



    The carbon issue is definitely accumulating on the upper portion of the retention ring, which was also replaced and is a F4. The carbon forms a crust that actually extends maybe a 1/2" past the ring and eventually shorts making the system not turn on. The boiler has been cleaned, vacd.



    Did just notice that the draft is .03" but the barometric control was set a bit to loose and was cutting the draft back. I am wondering if this could have played a part.
  • bill nye_3
    bill nye_3 Member Posts: 307
    What

    What do you have for a primary control? Does it have pre-post- purge? Does it have a good cut off ? When the burner stops does the flame go right out - or does it flicker and burn for a minute ?



     Is the "Z" dimension correct (distance from nozzle to end cone) ? Are the electrodes set correctly ?
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
    one other thought

    One other thing to try, we are seeing an issue this year similar to what you are describing. One resolution is to downsize the nozzle and increase pump pressure. I would increase pump pressure to 175 to try and resolve this.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    a little too high

    175 pump pressure is too high for an AFG. 140 is sufficient. Your electrodes and "Z" dimension are not spot on. Also check for a cracked insulator. A lot of times the good electrode will look for a ground if the other is no good. That can also create the carbon. The endcone is the closest ground. Another must is to always push down on the gun assembly after the thumb nut and nozzle line are tightened. It lifts up bringing it even closer to the top of the endcone if you don't push it back down. 
  • cwilliams2000
    cwilliams2000 Member Posts: 140
    Sorry

    Sorry Im a little sick today, the pressure is 140psi, and I thought the Z was right on the money, but I will check it again with the gauge and see.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Oil Mist/Down size replacement burner:

    Going from 1.25 GPH to .85 GPH  is a serious down fire in that boiler. Just because you got the stack temperature down, doesn't mean you made it more efficient. I'll bet that this thing will be filled with Kibbles and Bits by next fall. And with that burner, my most important tool in my box is an old Mill-Rose 3/4" copper fitting brush that I use to brush the carbon off the end cone, so common is that problem with that burner.

    The burner manufacturer spent a lot of R&D time on deciding the best burner kit and nozzle spray type and GPH. I have never found that any reverse engineering I tried was as successful as what was done before me.

    And if it was a Carlin EZ-1, you could have down fired it to your hearts content and only needed to change the head positioning bar. Because this is not an adjustable head burner, you can't mess with the spacing between the nozzle end and the end cone and easily increase or decrease the static pressure of the air through the retention head. Because the boiler is so big, rated at 1.25 GPH, and you down fired it to .85 GPH, you probably have too much draft through the boiler, sucking the flame away from the end cone/retention ring. Did you look at it with a flame mirror to see if the flame is tucked tight against the cone or is it wandering away from excessive draft? Combustion test? Ohms on Eye readings?

    There's a limit on how much you can down fire a burner into a boiler. I tried that 20 years ago when I first got my Bachrach Fyrerite kit. It didn't work then, and it doesn't work now.

    I've taken brand new boilers, out of the crate. Installed them and fired them off. Combustion tested them. They were as high as I would ever want them, running at their rated efficiencies. I down fired them and the efficiencies went down. The lower I fired them, the worse they became. The lower I fired them, the cooler the stack temperatures became, and the lower the CO2 went. If the CO2 is down, it isn't combusting as well as it could.

    The title of this topic is "Oil Mist In Blast Tube". That topic if it is what it is, to me signifies a leaking oil pump shaft seal if there is oil residue in the tube. Is there and oily residue around the pump shaft where it comes out of the pump? That will do it also. But I think that this boiler needs more restriction to slow down the draft or needs to be up-fired. Or serviced by someone experienced in such things.
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
    actually

    Billtwocase, I only suggested it after recieving that suggestion from a Beckett tech rep who I talked with in reference to this type of issue... The firing rate is not changed as long as you downfire to match the load.

     Ice I may be wrong but I believe the wbv-04 has two listings, one call's for the 85 nozzle and the other call's for the 1.10. The only thing they change is the air settings but I believe both are the same boiler block, please correct me if I'm wrong..:) Here to learn when I make mistakes..
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    they probably thought

    you had an NX. Those usually need to be boosted that high in worst cases. I'm not saying it won't work, just never seen or heard of it done with an AF/AFG. 
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
    doing

    We are presently doing it to combat an issue with coking on the retention head and fouling of the electrodes. Not just on the nx but all type's of burners. We arent seeing it on every system just a fair amount and with no consistancy. It has helped with some and in other's no change. They just keep fouling out after a couple weeks...
  • cwilliams2000
    cwilliams2000 Member Posts: 140
    ichmb

    Yes you are correct. Peerless publishes these versions of their boiler and the same 4 section can be run (per Peerless) in the following setups and nozzle types. I contacted PB about the issue and the tech did tell me they see the .85 I am running much less often than the 1.10 Hago and that I should not experience troubles with that Nozzle. I think at this point, I will give the hago a try and it is really isn't much more consumtpion and is probably a better match for this somehwhat larger boiler.



    WBV-03-085 AFG-F3¹ F3 3-3/8" 0.75 80° B HAGO³ 140 PSI 6.0 1 N/A

    WBV-03-110 AFG-F4 F4 3-3/8" 0.90 80° B HAGO 140 PSI 6.0 0 N/A

    WBV-04-095 AFG-F4 F4 3-3/8" 0.85 80° B DEL4 140 PSI 6.0 0 N/A

    WBV-04-125 AFG-F4 F4 3-3/8" 1.10 80° B HAGO³ 140 PSI 5.0 2 N/A

    WBV-04-150 AFG-F6 F6 2-3/4" 1.25 80° B HAGO 140 PSI 8.0 1 N/A

    WV-05-175 AFG-MV1 V-1 - 1.50 60° B HAGO³ 140 PSI 10.0 3 3

    WV-05-200 AFG-MV1 V-1 - 1.75 60° B HAGO 140 PSI 10.0 9 3
  • TonyS
    TonyS Member Posts: 849
    Pull the burner

    and look closely at the head, looking for small cracks in the outer circumference of the f head. Have found several cracked in half and warping when hot. I stopped using the 80 degree nozzles. They seem to close for comfort.

    Whenever possible...replace with a Riello. You wont have to pull the whole burner to inspect the head. 
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited February 2011
    Misty Rings:

    ICHMB,

    You may be OK with that. I know you can use two settings with that burner. When you said that you installed a new burner, I was commenting on how would you know that the end equipment you were using and was it correct. I never use those things for that reason. Too much confusion about heads and plates, nozzle types and electrode settings. They make my head hurt. So much so that I swore off those things long ago. I only use Carlin EZ-1's. In fact, my solution for problems with that unit is a brand new Carlin. It has yet to fail me.

    Here's my problem though which may or may not pertain. The Peerless WB-4 is actually listed for three firing rates. 1.50, , 1.25 and 0.95 GPH. They ship with the same burner and you only need to change the nozzle to get that rating. You are at the bottom of the rating. You downsized a step more than they list. When you go to a Carlin EZ-1 Pro, they suggest a pump pressure of 150#, a 1.25 60A Delavan, a 1.00 70A Delavan with a .85/1.00  head spacing bar and a 0.75 70A Delavan using a .75 head spacing bar. Far more head positioning with an adjustable head burner than you have. I finally swore them off because my #1 service complaint was them going off because the end coked up like you see and me needing to stick my large paw down the tube with a rag around my paw and a copper fitting brush in hand to scrape the carbon off the inside end. The only time I have a like problem with EZ-1's is when the system doesn't have two spin-on's and slime has plugged the back of the nozzle strainer and cut the flow pressure through the nozzle.

    If you do not have dual filtration with spin-on's and you are having this problem, there is a possibility that you are dealing with plugged nozzle strainers. When you take out the nozzle/electrode assembly, hold it level until it is out. Hold it nozzle end up and see how fast the oil runs out the bottom into a can. It should run out rapidly. After removing the nozzle, hold it up again. Does an appreciable amount of oil run out? Is so, you may have a clogging nozzle strainer. There is a lot of sludgy crud in the oil right now that can only be caught by Spin-Ons. That's my opinion.

    OBTW, Carlin lists the nozzle types for the WBV-4, before 2001 as all 60A Delavans. Something changed. 

    I'd look on the Beckett Web Site but my head would hurt.  
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    nozzles

    I never use Hago in Becketts. They, to me, are an older Carlin nozzle. I have not had good results with Hago in AF/AFG's. There is a height difference that is enough to throw off your "Z" setting. JMHO
  • cwilliams2000
    cwilliams2000 Member Posts: 140
    I agree, but...

    I agree and prefer Delevan also but Peerless only rates just one Delevan in this series boiler, so I am wondering if perhaps there is a reason for the style.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Nozzles:

    You will find that Hago nozzles are difficult to buy. They are owned by Stienen and if you want an odd size of Hago, you must 144 boxes of 6 to get one. Suppliers dropped carrying them. Thoush they say that Sid's has them
This discussion has been closed.