heating new cottage qith cathedral ceilings

cookie1027

Hi,

Any feedback would be appreciated :)

Am building new cottage this spring up here in montreal canada...will be 1500sq with main room cathedral ceilings and mezzanine...

Will be putting in a rumford renaissance fireplace which is huge and beautiful but realistically inefficient to heat...

Plan on spending our weekends there all year long...

Money is not an object but do not want to overkill...therefore geothermia is not an option...Was thinking of radiant flooring but did not know what tochoose between a furnace or heat pump or baseboards...

Electricity is cheap here at 5cents per kwh...so no need to go for gas or oil as main heating system...

my feeling was to get baseboard heaters because :

- no matter what the system, heat will always rise to the roof...

- it is not my primary home therfore even though more expensive than central heat, it will impact us less

- will give me the possibility to only heat the rooms where i am (we are only a couple for now)

- even AC would tend to not be ideal as the open space...

why not?

- like central systems

- would maybe be not as great for winter time and making sure nothing freezes

- would still like to have natural gas to cook etc...don't know if it would be good idea to incorporate gas without having it part of our heating system

-- would like central AC even though i enjoy summer months with open windows etc...

Would really onjoy feedback including reasons to spend the extra $$$ for a pump or furnace...

Thanks,

Michelle

kcopp

well then...

if money is not an object I would be doing radiant floor w/ Warmboard. This requires some fore thought as the 1" plywood needs to be used to frame up the structure. To say that no matter what you use means that the heat will rise is a misnomer. Radiant floor heat will not produce hot air thus  the floor will be warm and the air at the ceiling will be cooler. Using hot air that will not be that case. There are electric boilers on the market.

Brad White

I agree

Radiant floors by any means possible. This system is absolutely the least likely to stratify and will give the most comfort. Depending on heat loss, the floor alone may do it, but if the floor is not enough, you can create radiant walls. An electric boiler is a good place to start and this being a weekend home, the use of propylene glycol, 40% at least in your area, is a must.



(One power outage during a freeze without this protection and your license plate will change from "Je me souviens" to "Je veux oublier".)







The place I would start though is with a very well-thought-out building enclosure, either SIP (structural insulated panels), double-wall framed or continuous insulation with air barrier. Fortunately, the best American building science practitioners either are Canadian or learned from Canadians. You are in the best place for that expertise.



The better and tighter the shell, the more control you will have. Properly oriented, you may in fact need very little heat, even if it is low-cost.



Here in Boston we pay about $0.18 per kWH for electricity so if we at first seem resistant to recommending electric heat, that is why. But at your rate, it is comparable to 2/3rds of what we pay for natural gas ($1.85 per therm last I checked) and at 85% efficiency.



For example, for 100,000 net BTU's of useful heat, we would pay about $2.18 and you would pay $1.46. Exchange rates aside, you are well situated.

cookie1027

2 options

Thanks for your recommendations...

I talked to my contractor today and we discussed 2 options :

1- central furnace+AC

2- radiant floors+ central AC alone without furnace (+baseboards if necessary)

He said it would run approx same price around 10K...

What would be more practical? comfortable? efficient?

Thanks again,

Michelle

kcopp

that's easy...

efficency prob. about the same... Comfort... w/o a doubt Radiant.  Practical... well it depends You can do 2 for 1 w/ a furnace. but what will get the most use. Heat or A/C...? How many cooling days do you have in Quebec? You probably can do a built in unit or a Mini-split. a/c unit w/o running duct work.

cookie1027

please explain

sorry but i am new to this...

have started reading about heating last night...what do you mean by 2 in 1?

from what i understand?

- furnace 6500$

- AC 3500$

- radiant floors 6000$

- baseboards 1000$

i wrote initially that price was not an object but i don't want to overkill...like investing maybe 10K max...

furnace+AC without radiant floors?

radiant floors with non central AC (no ducts)...do you mean having a unit type that is installed on a wall and can cool maybe 1 or 2 rooms? then i would probably need baseboards as i would only put radiant floors on main floor (our 2nd floor is almost 50% open on main floor with cathedral ceilings)

thanks

cookie1027

cooling days

maybe 2 weeks periods X 2 or 3 spells...therefore lets say as i will go weekends...15 days..

cookie1027

more heat or cool

well i would probably use heat more frequently but can live more comfy even if it is a little cold...

when we go through hot humid spells here is Quebec, it can be unbearable to live and mostly sleep without AC

Brad White

Seriously,

for the money and benefit, on the AC side, I would recommend a couple of window type AC units. You have few cooling days and need to take the edge off. An upgrade from that is a ductless split system, known to be quiet and efficient.

Coupled with a good hydronic radiant system, even off an electric boiler, would give the best comfort.



I have spent a couple of summers years ago in the Laurentian Mtns. near St. Jerome and yes it can become quite humid and sticky every so often, no question. But as you said, it did not last long.



One may ask, "why not electric radiant matting?". That too is possible and a lower cost, but the hydronic system gives you the possibility to add a boiler later if your preferential rates ever "go market".



But ducted AC, even as part of a heating system (putting in ducts "just to have AC" and it heats by the way), is, in my opinion, too much of a compromise.



This especially so if ductwork is not entirely contained within the building thermal and air boundary. There is a tendency to run ductwork outside of this boundary to save internal space. It is erroneous thinking that sealing and insulating the duct work is the same thing as having it inside. Duct work can be done well, but historically has a wide range of quality and tightness, highly dependent on the installer.



My $0.02 (CDN) 



Brad

tim smith

Re cabin heat/cool etc

One answer I did not see was whether she has nat gas or just propane avail. If Propane I would venture to say electric will be the best option due to $$ of propane. Second, I think floor heat with mini split heat pumps might be a good pick for couple reasons. Heat could be turned down during unoccupied times with getting place back up to temp quicker with the air side. Also mini's would be much quieter for cooling levels at night for sleep. Another option is buffer tank with element for backup if using gas boiler, would be decent backup to boiler if fails while not on property due to intermittent use. Still use mini split heat pumps for a/c and backup heat. Just my 3 pesos. Tim 

 

Brad White

I like your thinking

Had not thought about the heat pump angle, ideal for some 3-season nights. Michelle enjoys a 5 cent per kW rate which is remarkable even if in hydropower land. Cheaper than any form of fossil fuel energy I can figure, especially propane. 

tim smith

Hey Brad, good morning

I can't believe I am actually talking shop while sitting here on the deck, 75 or so at 6:29 am. Drinking coffee and yacking. I am a lucky man.

Brad White

Good Morning, Tim!

I cannot believe it is 11:40 AM and it is 27 degrees outside and I am in my home office preparing invoices while talking shop. Coffee, good bagels.



All is well here too. You just have better weather than I do.

And here we are helping a neighbor to the north.



I love this place.