Bad replacement install

BE

I have a customer with an enormous heating bill for an apartment.  There are multiple problems with the system.  I'm curious what some of your opinions and suggestions will be.  Part of the problem is the tenant wants the apt. to be 70 degrees or more at all times and still have a low bill. 

The boiler is a Utica PEG187(472sqft)  Not piped according to specs or good practices.  They only used one tapping and it only rises about 14" above the water line and has multiple 90s before it actually goes into the main. It is a 2" perimeter one pipe system.

No insulation on any of the piping in the basement.

One radiator wont heat up it's the last one on the line

Homeowner has already installed adjustable vents on radiators in an effort to even out heat distribution

I did a heat load calc on existing rads and came up with 250 sq ft of steam for radiators.  Utica's specs say that they could have used a Peg 112. which would provide 281 sq ft of steam. Even with the bare pipe if they had gone with  a 150(375sqft) that would have been more than enough.

So some of my thoughts are:

Boiler should be repiped with both tappings and acording to specs. (not sure if they will go for it)

Install extra main vents in basement.

Add another vent to the radiator that wont heat

Remove two burner tubes and plug them off.  Will this help?

Based on info do you agree that boiler is oversized even with no insulation? Any suggestions

Thanks in advance

Brian

Steve_175

Great Expectations

"the tenant wants the apt. to be 70 degrees or more at all times and still have a low bill. "

And I don't want to pay taxes.



Besides all the problems you state is the place properly insulated? Are the windows decent?

I am not an expert but if the boiler is that oversized it could be the 400lb gorilla in the room that you will have to resettle with first.

BE

re

They have replacemnt windows and I'm not sure about the insulation its probably blown in, Going back tomorrow for other work will look into it. I hear ya on the taxes!

clammy

Things as usual

Even though they want it all, this system will not work properly until the boiler piping is corrected for starters.As for the last raditor if it did not heat with the last boiler it is probalby due to the lack of piping insulation which in my experence is usually one reason why some times raditors at the end of mains do not heat completly as without the mains being insulated you will waste alot of heat .I have in the past insulated steams mains in a few homes and each and every home owner has stated there fuel comsumption was less and there systems where quiter and there raditors got hotter then before .As for removing burners and plugging i believe it is not condoned by most manafatures and will in all likelyhood void any manafatures warranty and there also could be issues with draft and heat distrubtion across boiler sections but this is up to you.As for myself i would explain the oversized boiler ,piping ,main venting and insulation issues with the home owner and if they did not believe me that would be the end of it for me being i am not doing this work for my own benefit but to straighten out the mess some one else created .From my experences i look and see lots of knucklehead installs with all of the issues you have stated and most HO just give me that glazed holiday ham look and really do not  want to spend any extra money at which point i tell them to contact the original installers who either is not in the bussiness any more or state that that's the way steam systems works and that they should convert to hot water baseboard .Some times being the bearer of bad news or telling it the way it is not what people want ot hear all you an do my friend is tell them the truth and what it will cost to correct any other issues which will not be corrected (oversized boiler) and how that will play into the proper operation of the system .Get it all in writing and be crystal clear on what you are going to do and what they should except and of course your price will most likely be more then the original installation but you get what you pay for let them make the choice and move on to the next job no sense is wasting time you are not getting paid for i know in the past i have gotten jerked around and penny pinched alot .Now i look i tellem i price it they cry and i move on not to sound negative which most say i can be (just based on true reality)there's no sense wasting your time either to not get the work or just to get your brain picked and not get paided forgetaboutit .It sounds like you are on the right path for correcting it but if the HO don't believe it nor wants to pay unless you need pratice on piping and repairs and wear a good guy cape price it over you butt and move on they giot waht they paid for   peace and good luck clammy

nicholas bonham-carter

correcting bad install

the only thing you can do in this case is to give them a price altogether for :

1.repiping the boiler per the installation manual. plus

2.adding adequate main venting to the end of main [is it counterflow?]. plus

3.insulating the piping.

download the manual, and let them see for themselves.

trying to plug burners etc. will always be a gamble.

if they do not want to pay, then so be it. it is possible they could insulate the pipes themselves, and save a bit.--nbc

jimmythegreek

play good cop bad cop

I would do as nbc stated above, download the manual and show the HO what its supposed to look like and educate them a bit.  You could even give them the link to a website or two (garrity's site is awesome for info) so they can see ur not feeding them bull.  And also coach them into doing the insulation themselves or having a fam member or the like do it for them to save em some cash.  my local HD is up to almost 10 bucks for a length of insulation for 3" diameter, its getting expensive to insultate nowadays.  Usually when u present things honestly they will have faith in you cause ur willing to show them ur not out to get them. 

Charlie from wmass

What web site does garrity have?

Jimmy do you have a link? I would like to see it.