My burner has no expansion tank?

Brodacious

Hello, and thanks for stopping by.



My oil burner is expelling water out of what I believe is a pressure release valve thing.

I called a plumber and he said to check the pressure in my expansion tank.

I can't find it, so unless its hidden somewhere in the house, I don't have one.



There are some other "Air trapper" things which are inline. Could they be some old version of an expansion tank?



Any ideas?

Jean-David Beyer

Missing expansion tank.

I had an old GE oil burner whose installation manual said it required no expansion tank.

It had sort-of two tanks one within the other. The fire was in the inner tank, and the water in the outer tank. The pipes entered at the bottom or the middle and there was an air bleed valve a little bit farther up. So there was quite a lot of trapped air in the top that could act as an expansion tank.



Whoever installed that boiler (in about 1950) did put in an expansion tank. What bothered me more was there was no pressure relief valve even though the instructions said there must be. The makeup feed had no anti-backflow valve, but it did have a pressure reducing valve and relief valve that specifically said it was not the required pressure relief valve.



Do you have the installation manual? It may say you do not need an expansion tank.

Charlie from wmass

Do you have hot water heat?

or steam heat?

Brodacious

no manual

Thanks for the help guys.



Its not steam heat, its water base-board heating.



We moved into the house about 3 years ago, this just started happening recently.

I do not have the manual.



any ideas?

Charlie from wmass

Picture day on the wall!

Post a few photos of the boiler and related piping. nothing too close up just general over view shots is all.

add

old system

you may have an expansion tank in the roof,or you have an old open system,

Big Ed_4

Expansion

As mentioned some of the boilers made in the late 40's early 50's had built in expansion tanks ... York is another model that comes to mind ... Also there was a main supply line tank which the main supply went though the tank .. Could this be the air trap thing you mentioned ?



Also check the attic or knee walls in Cape Ccd type homes

heatmizer

x

if  you  have the old  just  water tank style , if that what  you mean  when you say you have   some other  device  , that would  make sense because the  none diafram  tank  the air will   get  captured by the water over time so  tank will fill  making  it useless and causeing problems  such as you  discribe   just  empty tank  and should  slove problem .

Brodacious

Thanks for the help guys

So, I took another look at all the stuff, and took some pictures.

I noticed that there is no hot water tank, which I find to be kind of odd, but I work with computers so, what do I know.



What I thought was the hot water thank (the blue thing) looks like it only has 1 pipe going into it from the taco.



Should I try to drain the blue tank?

Thanks for the advice

billtwocase

draining tank

Yes, drain the tank. It is a place to start. Turn the boiler switch off, close the inline isolation valve, use a hose and buckets. It's good to see how many gallons are removed. The tank looks like a 15 gallon. If just a little bit comes out at first, then the flow stops, you will need to get air in the tank so you can drain it, Look for a waste cap 

Jean-David Beyer

Draining expansion tank.

That "blue thing" is an expansion tank. The way the Taco air scoop is piped into the tank should reduce greatly the likelihood of the tank filling up with water. But Mr. Murphy seldom takes a vacation, and draining it should be harmless.



The drain valve in the picture may be of a kind that facilitates draining. If it is, there should be a brass screw that seems to hold the handle on. Removing that screw (have a bucket handy, should allow air to easily get into the tank (a tube above the screw going up near the top of the tank inside). The bucket is because water can come out until it starts working. You have the hose at the output of that valve of course.



If you do not have that kind of valve, you can either have one installed, or get a diaphragm type tank.

add

drain the expansion tank

turn off the emergency swithc.turn off the water feed valve.then turn off the gate valve after the taco air scoop on 1/2 in copper line,then attach a garden hose or any other hose to the boiler drain valve on the bottom of the tank ,open it slowly and then open the 1/2 in union in between ,the smart man who installed ,did it for a good reason is to create a vacuum.actually i would run the hose outside or into any other closer drain.empty the entire tank.then close and reopen everything back in the same order.if you prv still leaks let us know and we move on to the next steps.

Brodacious

Great Sucess

Guys,



Thanks for all the input.



I turned the burner off and started draining water.

I drained about 10 gallons off when I noticed the water getting noticeably hotter.

I than remembered about the feeder valve, and figured I was sucking water right out of the hot water reservoir. I closed that off and the water starting coming out in a trickle. I than found the bleeder value thing on the side of the and opened her up and we started getting some nice flow.



~15 gallons later she was empty.



The noise and the sputtering have ceased.



Mission accomplished.

Thanks !!!

billtwocase

glad we could help

I would also monitor how often it fills. It shouldn't need to be drained more than once every 2-3 years. Some do need it yearly. If it is filling sooner than that, then you either have a pin  hole on the top of the tank, usually from a flooring nail, or the feed valve is slowly feeding at times when it shouldn't be.  good luck

kcopp

One more thing....

systems w/ conventional expabsion tank should NOT have air vents in them. I see TWO in your  2nd pix. Close those off. This could be part of the reason you lost the charge in the tank.... kpc

billtwocase

I now see them

They look like old Maid-O-Mists that haven't worked in years. They also didn't close off too well. I like the one on the air scoop, but I'd lose the other

heatboy

This will be an ongoing issue......

.......because there is no tank fitting.  Nothing to keep the air in the tank.

billtwocase

what tank fitting?

does it need Heat? The air may be escaping due to a pinhole. Sounds like was his first issue on a system that looks to be close to 50 years old? I would say at least a 40 year old Texaco/Paragon boiler

Big Ed_4

Air scoop

We all see the same problem in that second air scoop.. The problem is the way the main is piped ,that second air scoop will catch all the air and it does not vent back to the tank like the other .. We can change so much here ... Did someone say Sawzal ? :0

Robert O'Brien

At close to $4/gallon

That 5 or 6 section 13 series Dunkirk is doing you no favors!