Near-boiler piping, counter-flow steam

Luv'nsteam

With four mains.  There were two boilers, one was removed before my involvement.  This is a Weil-McLain EG (30 or 35, still not sure. Waiting for Weil-McLain to call back with info about the burner count-it's natural gas).  The near-boiler piping is wrong: for starters, it is sweated copper.  Secondly, per TLAOSH, the header should feed the mains from the top, they currently do not. 



1) In order to get the header to connect from the top and to get away from the bull-head tee feeding them, I will need to create a header and bring two risers from it to feed each of the two mains.  (Each of these mains in turn feed another main, all counter flow and all properly sloped).  I am not sure how to do that.



2) Does a counter-flow system need an equalizer?  In the pics I found so far, there is not one shown.  Also, I have yet to lay my hands on the install recommendations from Weil-McLain for this boiler. 



Any and all help is greatly appreciated.



Thank you,

Mike

Mike Kusiak_2

Weil boiler burner count

EG30 has 3 burners, EG35 has 4

Luv'nsteam

Then it is an EG 30.

Is it possible/economical/easy to change the burner and turn the boiler into the EG35?  One of the complaints is when the T-stat is turned up over 60 it just runs and runs.  There are other problems I am addressing too, like zero pipe insulation and bad or MIA main air vents.  Even with the increased burner, the boiler is a tad small for the load

Total load of radiators: 61,200 Btu's and with a pickup factor of 1.3: 79,560.

EG30 net IBR = 47 MBH

EG35 net IBR = 55 MBH

DOE for both = 62 MBH (how can that be??)



Thank you,

Mike

Charlie from wmass

Piping is in the

installation manual.

Luv'nsteam

Piping in the manual

I just found the manual.  But, it only shows one main.  I am still not sure how the near-boiler piping should be for this hookup.  Or is the current configuration OK  Any suggestions are still welcome.



Thank you,

Mike

Rod

Multi Main Counterflow System

Hi- Here are some pictures of a nice counterflow system done by Steve Gronski , a Rhode Island steam pro. It uses a header and drips to a wet return /Hartford loop.

- Rod

Luv'nsteam

That is beautiful

Pipe work.  Thank you, Rod.  I am curious though, with the mains being dripped, could they have been brought back into the horizontal pipe off what looks like the equalizer and thus avoiding the Hartford loop?  I ask this because the system is all counter flow and the Hartford loop is not required otherwise.



Since the connections to the main are parrallel to the mains and not being brought from the top down, is this the reason they are dripped?  Or is it because this is where the condensate in the mains returns to the boiler? 





Thank you,

Mike

Rod

Multiple Mains/Hartford Loop on a Counterflow System

Hi Mike -  While a counterflow system theoretically really doesn't need a Hartford loop, the setup, as in the pictures, has its of benefits while only using a few extra fittings.  It provides a wet leg to collect "mud" and gives the cold make up water more of a chance to mix before hitting the hot boiler. (Also notice that the makeup water inlet (and drain valve) is positioned to flush the mud from the short wet return)  Being on the floor takes the weight of the piping and doesn't put strain on the equalizer piping.  Probably the biggest benefit is that it has a Hartford loop which is about the only item a lot of inspectors seem to recognize on a steam system. To these - No Loop = No Pass!



The purpose of the drip lines is to collect the returning condensate before it drops vertically into the upcoming steam stream from the boiler. The header's purpose is to dry out the steam stream so it doesn't make much sense spraying water (returning condensate) back into the dry steam.

The counterflow system is the simplest form of steam system and the majority of ones I've seen are in old houses and have one main. The reason I originally saved these pictures as I thought it had a very good approach to dealing with multiple mains on this type of system and also having a good header to help produce dry steam.

- Rod

Danny Scully

End of Mains

Can you take pictures of the end of the mains?

Luv'nsteam

The pics I have

Show little.  However, I did put a level on every pipe and all pipes lead back to the boiler.  What are you hoping to see with pics of the ends of the mains?



Thank you,

Mike

Luv'nsteam

Your description

Is much appreciated, along with the pics, Rod.  After reading your explanation and then looking more closely at the pics, I see what you mean and it makes sense. 



Thank you,

Mike 

Luv'nsteam

Your description

Is much appreciated, along with the pics, Rod.  After reading your explanation and then looking more closely at the pics, I see what you mean and it makes sense. 



Thank you,

Mike 

Danny Scully

Better Idea

I just want to get a better idea of the piping, somthing doesn't seem right. Well, a lot doesn't seem right haha.

Luv'nsteam

You are not kidding!

Aside from the fact it is copper and is sweated together, to me, it seams all wrong, too!  However, I am not sure if at this time, I will tackle the near-boiler piping problems.  I will likely wait until spring - the house is currently warm. : ) 



Is there any other questions I can answer in the mean time?



Thank you,

Mike

Danny Scully

1-1/4

Where is that 1-1/4 (or 1") line coming from? And where is the fourth main?

Luv'nsteam

The 1 1/4" pipe, is

 Actually a 1" pipe.  This is a completely useless pipe too - it is hooked to the end of a main at the far right side and is higher than the main.  It never gets warm, let alone hot and after placing a level against the main it is connected to, I have determined it does not get warm or hot because the condensate never gets to it.  I am removing it, eventually. 



  I was wrong about four mains - what I thought was the fourth main is actually a branch off of a main on the right side of the boiler.  That pipe is black and you can see the take off from a silver main on the third picture, I think it is.  It heads up and left.



Thank you,

Mike