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Primary lockout

Emjay
Emjay Member Posts: 8
I have a Weil-McLain P-368 boiler with an Elite EZ-1 burner controlled by a Honeywell R7184U Primary and L7224 Aquastat. I use a programmable thermostat which goes down to 60 degrees overnight, then up to 68 in the morning. For two nights in a row now the primary has gone into lockout mode in the middle of the night. Thus when we get up in the morning the house is cold. I have been able to restart it but this is not acceptable. It has not happend during the day when the thermostat goes down to 65 for a few hours mid-day then back up to 68 until bed-time. The system was recently cleaned with a new nozzle and retention ring installed. It has run without issue for the months since the maintenance.

Can anyone recommend anything I can check to solve the problem? I pulled the burner and the nozzle and ring look fine - clean with no creosote or anything. Is there a diagnostic I can do? I have a voltage/ohm meter I can use, as well as some basic tools. I have been out of work so am hoping to be able to avoid hiring a contractor as I do not have the money for it now.

Comments

  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Lockout:

    First, why was the  retention ring replaced? I've never replaced one in my life.

    The nozzle should be a .85 60' B Delavan.

    Is it cold start?

    I don't know what the Ohm reading for a Honeywell primary control is. 1500 or 1600 Ohms.

    Was trhe yellow plastic gauge used to set the electrode assembly.

    If the nozzle was replaced with a .75 nozzle, make sure that it is what is above. A 60 degree B, Solid DELAVAN nozzle.

    You may need help. Low fired or any fired oil burners aren't really for homeowners to play with. Its hard enough for the Pro's.
  • Emjay
    Emjay Member Posts: 8
    edited January 2011
    Emjay's reply

    When the contractor did the fall maintenance he discovered that the ring was covered in creosote. Upon further research it was determined that it was not the correct ring for the burner. The appropriate one was installed and a Delavan 60' A nozzle was used. The Carlin manual indicates that either a 1 GPH 60' or 70' A can be used, but that the 60' is standard. The yellow gauge was not used, but the electrodes were positioned per the specs in the manual. The system has been running fine for since the maintenance, this lockout problem has only just started. Once it has been reset it runs fine all day. Only when the thermostat requests heat in the morning after the boiler has been off during the night does the lockout occur.

    You said a .85 60' B should be used. However, the manual indicates that for a P-368 boiler it should have a 1 GPH 60' or 70' A Delavan nozzle. Is there an advantage to the .85 over the 1? I suppose that would probably burn less fuel. And why the solid over the hollow nozzle? Again, is there a reason not to follow the manual? Maybe it is outdated information.

    As I stated earlier, since I've been out of work there just isn't any money available to hire someone. I'm only barely able to buy oil, and am actually behind on the payment.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Carlin Lockout:

    All he needed to do was scrape the carbon off with a copper fitting brush and use a sheet rock knife between the slots. Brush it up with a piece of sand cloth. The only time I consider a replacement is when the bolt/screw that clamps the ring to the nozzle assembly has the head so worn from being removed that it is hard to keep a screw driver on it.

    I have the same boiler burner in my home. Carlin Specs for a Weil-McLain WGO boiler are as follows. .85 60' B Delavan with 140#. pump pressure. Did the guy check the pump pressure? If it was the package burner from Weil-McLain, it was set at 140#. That's why you use the .85 nozzle. Higher pressure means a higher flow rate. So you need to downsize the nozzle.  I might even try to go to 160#. But, if the pump pressure is 140# and you have a 1.00 GPH nozzle in there, you are are over firing the boiler. A 60' A nozzle is a "hollow" nozzle. Carlins like B/Sollid nozzles in EZ-1's.

    Did he use combustion analysis on the exhaust?

    My information comes from years of experience with Carlin burners in Weil-McLain applications. My set up information comes from the Carlin "Oil & Gas Burner Set Up Tables for OEM Applications. 2010 2nd Edition." I got it from Carlin two weeks ago.
  • Emjay
    Emjay Member Posts: 8
    reply back

    Ok, so I'll get a new nozzle and adjust the PSI, hopefully the supply store is open tomorrow. Until then, any suggestion on preventing it from not starting up in the morning? I can set the thermostat to not shutdown over night and maintain a steady temp of 68'. Would that help?
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Lockout:

    It shouldn't lock out overnight at all. There's a lot of things that can cause it. At times, you almost need to be there when it acts up and does its thing. I had one that I took on that misbehaved like your for years. It was sporadic. It would do it once every three months, then once a day. I tried everything. I finally found it when I was working on something in the boiler space and I heard the PV'er start, the burner go into pre-purge, fire, run for a few seconds and lock out with the red light coming on. The thing was running when it locked out. It was a draft problem with the Powerventer. I had to add a second RC draft control. The eye wasn't seeing enough flame.

    It can be a lot of things.

    If you are handy with electronics, there is a post I made about using an Ohm Meter to test what the eye is seeing. If it is seeing much over 1200 or 1300 ohms, draft can cause the flame to change and the eye can pick it up.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    I don't recall

    that Carlin EZ was an option on 68 series Weils. Did someone replace this burner for you? 
  • Emjay
    Emjay Member Posts: 8
    EZ-1 on a Carlin

    The EZ-1 was on the boiler when we bought the house. All the documentation I have indicates that the Carlin can be used with the Weil-McLain P-368.
  • Emjay
    Emjay Member Posts: 8
    Update

    I put the thermostat on "hold" last night, set at 68'. The burner did not go in to lockout and everything is running fine.
  • add
    add Member Posts: 94
    after the annual cleaning

    it seems that your problem started after the atu and happens over night whwn you drop the tt' to 60 and the burner has a chance to sit longer ,and is allowing to get some air into the oil line by the canister or loose fitting,that if you have a 2 line system that is my feeling by quickly reading your initial post.about the carlin ez- is probably retro fit.bye
  • Tundra
    Tundra Member Posts: 93
    overnight lockout

    If your oil tank is lower than the burner you might have a bad fuel pump. There is a valve inside the pump that goes bad and allows air to come into the system as the fuel drains back into the tank. This is not a problem in the day as your burner is running enough to push the air out and light off before lockout. When you turn the thermostat down the burner is off for a longer period and more air gets into the system than can be pumped out before the lockout time on your primary. You can replace the fuel pump but you will need to change the pump pressure as the replacement pump will be preset at 100 psi. If you have the gage to set the pump pressure you can test the pump before replacing it. Change the coupling when you change the pump. Always best to do combustion testing after changing a pump.

    The reason to check for proper combustion on a nozzle change is that there is a slight variation from one to another. If one comes off the line at +5% and the next one you put in is at -3% you have a significant change to your air mixture.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Primary Lockout/W-M P368

    I just re-read this post. For some reason I thought this was a WGO-3. It is a P368. P-368's came with Becketts, Carlins or Waynes. I always bought "A" blocks so I could get the return tapping in the cack and pipe it as I needed it. I also always bought EZ-1's for them.

    The Carlin EZ-1 for that application calls for 100# pump pressure. It did call for a 1.00 GPH nozzle. I found that a Hago 60' SS nozzle works best in them. That a Delavan 70A of B nozzle will blow out the target wall after a time.

    There is only one retention ring made for an EZ-1.
  • World Plumber
    World Plumber Member Posts: 389
    Many causes

    The burner should be checked for proper fuel pressure, the transformer tested. the eye checked is it less than 1500 ohms when it's firing?. Is the flame clean? Is something causing a smoky flam? Do you have an air leak allowing air in the line when it's off long periods? How does it start when you push the reset? Is it a clean instant start?

    I had one where it turned out to be the aquastat. Sometimes the contact didn't close cleanly and gave enough voltage to start the primary but not enough voltage to turn the burner motor. Good luck..
  • World Plumber
    World Plumber Member Posts: 389
    Many causes

    The burner should be checked for proper fuel pressure, the transformer tested. the eye checked is it less than 1500 ohms when it's firing?. Is the flame clean? Is something causing a smoky flam? Do you have an air leak allowing air in the line when it's off long periods? How does it start when you push the reset? Is it a clean instant start?

    I had one where it turned out to be the aquastat. Sometimes the contact didn't close cleanly and gave enough voltage to start the primary but not enough voltage to turn the burner motor. Good luck..
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