Pro near Roebling / Trenton NJ Area?

Roebling

I live in Roebling NJ, an old factory town for the Roebling Steel company. I hate my old inefficient oil steam one pipe system. I'm smart enough to know that the best place to start with properly assessing how bad it is would be a walk-through with a true pro. I'm hoping to do this in early March when the worst of the winter is over. I'm getting through this year, but i want to figure out long term solutions to make this house livable in the winter without burning through oil dollars. This looks like an amazing website, so any advice is appreciated. By the way, i bought Dan's steaming good deal of books (we've got steam, lost art, pocketful of problems) so that has been a good intro.



I'm looking to get an idea for costs of new boiler, converting to gas, new pipes and rads (current have been corroding for 100 years). I know pics are helpful, so i can post them too later.

nicholas bonham-carter

bad system

maybe you don't have to wait until spring to begin to improve the system, or at least to survey it. post some pictures of the boiler and the piping, so we can advise. most likely, your main venting is non fumctional, and probably your pressure is too high. all the most likely causes of non functionality are relatively easy, and cheap to fix [but not $5.00 cheap].--nbc

David Nadle

Post pics

You probably don't need new pipes and radiators. 100 years is nothing. You probably do need new vents and main vents, and you might need pipe insulation. You don't have to wait for spring to do that stuff. Is it just energy use that concerns you, or are there performance problems? Replacing your boiler might be the way to go, but for the biggest payback in energy savings I would start with air sealing and insulating the house.

Roebling

Lots of Pics

Thanks guys for your interest in helping. I took several pics of the boiler, piping, and rads and posted them on flickr here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/murray105/



One thing you will notice right away - asbestos insulation on the piping. So obviously, that should be removed. The pipes in the basement are hidden behind a drop cieling, but I poked up through to take the pics. I did not see anything that looked like a main vent down there. I followed the pipes to the end and did not see one main vent. Would they have actually built this system without main vents? Am I missing something here?



Very interesting that 100 years is not too long. Thats good to hear. My main complaints are the inefficiency of how quickly i burn through expensive oil and I have the temp at 65 from 6pm to 1:30am. Otherwise its at 55 degrees all other hours of the day.



A couple rads still spit water even though i pitched them better. Since the thermostat is downstairs, my room on the 3rd floor is always colder.



One oddity: I noticed that not all the rads had their valves open all the way. So I opened them all. After I did that, I noticed the rads downstairs would heat up nicely but the ones upstairs were colder and the one in the bathroom on 2nd floor was completely cold. So I closed a couple rads on the 1st floor back to halfway open and the upstairs is warmer again. Weird.



As far as insulating the house, what kinds of insulation are available for a brick house? Can air sealing be done? I'm learning a lot and still have a lot to learn. Thanks so much!!

Rod

Counterflow System ?

Hi- The pictures are a big help. It would appear that you have a 1 pipe counterflow steam system.I attached one of your pictures with added labeling. I marked what the slope would be on a normal counterflow main. Are the mains actually sloped in the direction of the arrows? 

The main vents on a counterflow system go at the far end of each main after where the last radiator branches off so this is where you would want to look for them or possibly a capped line where they were originally located. It's quite possible your system never had main vents as back in the days of coal fired boilers the coal fire heat built very slowly and steam was gradually produced so air in the mains and radiators had plenty of time to exit through the radiator vents. Today the boilers produce steam very rapidly so there is a need to get the air out of the mains as quickly as possible so the steam can replace it and get into the radiators.

Asbestos- You probably want to think about having it removed especially if you plan to sell your house in the near future. Asbestos freaks new home buyers out though actually it is quite alright as long as it isn't loose. I notice you have some loose asbestos and you can warp it in cheese cloth and paint it which seals it so it present no problem. There are some commercial sealers that can be used too. If you sweep the loose stuff up -wet it down first as then it won't fly about.

Radiator vents- Generally you want to use the same type of vent through out your system. The best vents seem to be either adjustable Hoffman 1A s or Vent-rites. Mains you want to vent fast but radiators should be vented slowly.  What probably happened when you opened up the vents was that in letting air out of the raditaors quickly, steam rapidly filled the radiator which  increased the condensing in the larger radiators. When steam condenses volume wise it goes from a cubic foot of steam down to a cubic inch of water. This creates a huge vacuum in the radiator which sucks in more steam. The bigger radiators closer to the boiler gulp down a large percentage of the available steam and that starves the radiators that are smaller and farther away from the boiler. What I suspect is happening in you system now is that the steam is making its way slowly up the main filling each radiator as it goes and then moving on when that radiator's vent shuts. Having large main vents fills the mains quickly first so steam reaches all the radiators at practically the same time. Your boiler piping look good. Who ever did the piping  seems to have done a pretty good job so you should have good dry steam.

David mentioned tightening up your house and insulating which is without a doubt the biggest bang for the buck and would make the biggest difference to your fuel bills. Insulating all the steam boiler piping also makes a noticeable difference.

Piping- As David said it's very likely okay. Mine is over 100 years old and all I've done is replace the wet return. These old systems are pretty bullet proof.

- Rod

David Nadle

Start in the attic

If your attic is poorly insulated and not sealed you're losing a lot of your heat right through the roof. Cold air must come in to make up the hot air lost, and most if it is probably coming in around your rim and band joists. Those are two areas you can attack even with brick walls and will make a big difference. Even if you just air seal every penetration into the attic and don't add insulation you'll make a big difference.



You seem to be in much better shape than a lot of people who post here with brand new boilers. The only thing I would do with the boiler is orient the pigtail so it curls front to back, and get the pressuretrol level. Make sure it's set to minimum cut-in and differential. Have a look at your water, make sure it's clean and there's no sludge in the return. If it's been a while, hire a service firm to do all that for you and clean the burners and check the combustion. Also, adding some 1" fiberglass pipe insulation to the uncovered pipes would be nice.



 

Roebling

Insulation, main vents

I agree the asbestos has to go before thinking of selling. I'm concerned that the remover could damage the pipes or the slope. Is that a valid concern?



Thanks so much Rod for the diagram of my photo. The slope of the mains is as you suggest in the diagram. Since it appears that I do not have any main vents or even any sign of where they used to be, is it possible to even have main vents installed? The pic attached shows the ends of "Main B" as labelled in your diagram and i don't see any sign of venting.



Rod - thanks for the advice about the vents. But it was the valves that I opened all the way when I noticed my issue with the 1st floor rads heating nicely but the 2nd and 3rd floor ones being colder. Thats what was really odd, did not seem to make any sense.



David, thanks so much for the insulation advice. I will be looking up info on how to do those things you suggested. I'm hoping it won't cost too much. I didn't even realize i had any options for insulation with brick.

Thanks again, you're good guys, very much appreciated!

Rod

Main Vents

Hi- On the asbestos removal- You're probably okay on that. Just if and when you get it done, make sure the people doing the removal understand your concerns.  You might also establish some index points before hand by measuring the vertical distance from the top of the main steam pipe to the joist above.  Mark every 3rd  joist with the measurement and then it is easy to go back later and check and adjust if necessary .

Main Vents- Looking your latest picture it would seem you have only one steam main and the "Main B"  is just a lateral with two branches. What is attached to "B -1" and "B - 2" ?  You might want to put together a drawing of your piping with some measurements as this can really help you understand your system better.  How long is steam main "A"?  If you can't find a place (fitting) to mount a main vent at the far end of the main, you can quite easily drill and tap a hole in the pipe as a place to install a main vent. It should be located after where the last radiator lateral joins the main. (I'm sure you're thinking is just tapping into the pipe strong enough? You have to remember that that steam system run on very low pressure so a super strong fitting isn't necessary).  Do you have plenty of overhead clearance above the end of the main?

This link might be of help to you.  http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/

It's to the website of Gerry Gill, who is expert steam pro in the Cleveland area. It has a lot of good info on residential steam heating with a great section on main venting.

- Rod

Roebling

B - branches

B-2 goes directly to the radiator in the 1st floor living room. B-1 is a pipe that goes up through the living room into the second floor bedroom radiator and then continues up to the 3rd floor attic bedroom radiator. So it goes straight up to the attic while branching off to a rad on 2nd floor. Thanks again for the great diagram. When I get a chance I will draw up a map of my piping. Its good to know that its possible to drill the pipe to insert a main vent if needed. GW Gill looks like another great website with plenty of reading material!



Thanks again! If you're ever in new jersey, my beer is your beer!

Rod

Master Vents

Hi- Just thought I'd include a couple of more ideas that might be of help to you.

     Since B-1 is sort of a "mini main" something along the line of a "master vent" in the attached diagram might be of help attached at the main's end in the attic.

 On the main vents- If when you drill and tap a hole for your vent sometimes the pipe connected to the vent hole feels weak. Use some JB Weld epoxy as a fillet around the pipe joint to strengthen it. JB Weld can be found at any auto parts store and is used for repairing leaks in water pumps, engine blocks etc. Normally you won't need it .This is just a fall back plan if you run into any problems. 

Vents- Most of the people on this site use Gorton Main Vents. Gorton has two model main vents, the Gorton #1 and the Gorton #2. The #2 has 3 times the venting capacity of a #1. A good source for Gortons is Pex Supply on the internet. On a counterflow system, installing main vent (s) should really improve the operation of the system. If you have the overhead clearance I'd start out with a Gorton #2 on the end of Main "A", otherwise use several Gorton #1(s) on an antler. I've attached a drawing of Brad White's on Menorahs and Antlers. This is an easy way to place multiple vents on your main per Gerry Gill. By using an antler your can remote your vents away from the main a bit and protect them from water hammer. Arrange the antler so that any water that enters the pipe will drain back out. Note  the use of the pipe union. This allows you to make up (and service ) the antler on a bench and then attach it to the main with one fitting.

Thanks for the beer offer!

- Rod

Edit:  Another possibility for the B-1 "mini main" would be using a Gorton "D" vent on the attic radiator. The "D" model is radiator vent and has the same venting capacity as a Gorton #1. The difference is that it is an angled vent and has a 1/8 inch MPT for attachment to the radiator's vent hole. This vent is also available from Pex Supply