Drop Header Q

Steve_175

I have seen photo's and read in this forum that a drop header is the preferred way to pipe a steam boiler. If I understand correctly this is because it is better at producing dry steam. Why don't I see it specced in boiler manuals?

How could I convince a plumber not familiar with them that it is the right thing to do?

How much better is it really?

Joe V_2

If you

have enough height between mains and boiler's water line, you don't need a drop header.

So, You might not need one.  They are more time consuming to install, therefore more expensive. 

If your contractor doesn't know what one is, he may not be the right one for the job...

Rod

A Dropheader Believer

Hi- Dropheaders are probably one of the best kept secrets in steam heating. Why they aren’t shown more in the manufacturer’s installation diagrams is probably due to the ignorance of the homeowner which results in the only consideration in buying a boiler being finding the lowest bid. This puts a boiler manufacturer in a dilemma as they know if they recommend the optimum boiler piping that then the other manufacturer, with minimal piping, (and minimal material cost) will probably get the bid. This competition for the lowest bid leads to the lowest common denominator in boiler piping which is the cheapest piping configuration which will still (barely) function. The dropheader initially costs more due to the extra fittings but is far easier to install due to flexibility the extra fittings provide so you make up the extra material costs in the labor saving.. Some manufacturers do include the dropheader in the piping drawings. Burnham has one which is labeled  “Alternate piping method” pictured in their piping diagram for the Megasteam and I believe this is also included in other Burnham boiler models as well.

.

The flexibility of the fittings has another bonus. The added movement of the extra elbow in the riser makes the section more like a universal joint on a car and allows more movement which relieves expansion stress between the header pipe and the boiler’s sections.



Other benefits of the Dropheader:

1 Unlimited riser height - results in drier steam. (See attached picture of a excellent dropheader done by Clammy, a steam pro in New Jersey.

2. The riser piping enters the top of the header and interferes less with the condensate stream in the header results in drier steam. Having steam entering from the side of the header (standard installation  drawing), the incoming steam collides with the condensate stream resulting in water being mixed with the steam. (see attached diagram)

3. The header pipe can be placed lower which can better facilitate the riser piping lead from the header pipe  the the steam mains. (See picture of dropheader mentioned in #1 above)



Dan mentions the benefits of using a dropheader in his new book “Greening Steam” - Page 98

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Books/5/158/Greening-Steam-br-How-to-Bring-19th-Century-Heating-Systems-into-the-21st-Century-i-and-save-lots-of-green-i

Page 87 to 97 of this book has multiple pictures of Weil McLain’s glass piped demo boiler in operation and shows the large amounts of condensate (water) that the header processes which makes you really appreciate the benefits of the drop header in achieving dry steam.

As a homeowner, my experience with a dropheader is rather limited. I’ve only helped install three, but just the ease of installing multiple risers to the header pipe has made me a real believer.

- Rod

clammy

Posting my install

Hey Rod  thanks for the complement .Every  steam boiler  deserves a oversized drop header and the use of both risers  instead of one ,There are alot of guys who do steam and ain't doing it right period ,i could right more books then dan on all the terrible steam boiler install i see and another one on all the steam boiler jobs i don't get and yet one more on all the ones i did not get but get called to look at after some one else installers it cheaply usually i go look at them just for the laughs i usually don't repipe them i  just set the pressuretroll lower and leave .If they did not have the money to pay me in the first place they ain't got it for the second time around .Drop headers ,full size risers(using 2 risers) and over sized header and the real deal but there are few with the tools  and skills or understanding to pull it off .If your steam boiler install doesn't look like that pic you did not get your monies worth .And that is the truth .Thanks again for the kind words Rod peace and good luck clammy

Steve_175

What to do about this ?

Plumber installed this 8 yrs ago. Have known for a while that the near boiler piping is wrong. Also in the process of increasing the venting on it. Trying to get him to come out and correct this to installation specs. What else would you do to bring this up to a first rate job?

Rod

Boiler Piping

Hi Steve-  Your boiler was installed 8 years ago?  The header seems a bit low . If you could please take some more pictures of your boiler from all side from farther away from the boiler as we need to be able to trace out the piping connected to the boiler. If we need to see detail we can then blow up the pictures if necessary. Also what is the make and model of your boiler? Do you have the I&O manual?

- Rod

BobC

header is too low

Steve,



Your header is too low but exactly what symptoms are you experiencing? How well did the system perform with the old boiler?



Once you post the next set of pictures I'm sure we can find a solution to your problems. In the meantime do you have the installation manual? in that you will find a suggested piping diagram, that is the MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE PIPING. Anything above that just makes the steam dryer. From looking at your pictures that header is much to low.



If you don't have the manual, give us the model number of the boiler and we will find it for you.



Bob

Joe V_2

you dont

....have enough height above the waterline acording to boiler manual, unless you have a double header that is not visible. And you are using only one of the two risers available. you should have wet steam.



That looks like a burnham IN 4 or 5. Sometimes these things work anyway and you may be ok. Why did you wait eight years? What problems are you experiencing?



You should really forget the plumber and pay someone with experience to look at it to make sure you dont have problems the plumber wouldnt recognize.

jpf321

burnham Megsteam I&O...

shows a drop header as an "alternate piping configuration" on page 25 here: http://www.usboiler.burnham.com/pdf/Megasteam%20I&O%20%28web%29.pdf

jonny88

drop header

my company never uses drop headers,but we always give both risers 24" above the water line.in fact all the steam boilers we have worked on in bklyn i have yet to see one.i dont believe it is because of lack of skill or lack of tools that we dont do it,however that does look like a nice installation you did clammy on your boiler and if my boss will spring for the extra $ and time i would love to give it a try,again nice installation,good work.may i ask are you doing that in a day,including removing the old boiler

Steve_175

More Pics

Here are some additional pics. I know it needs additional venting, they are on back order. Curious if you think the hartford loop is correct. To my non professional eye it looks like it needs to be lower. If I can manage to get the original plumber to correct his mistakes I want to know what he needs to do to get it right. I realize asking him to put in a drop header is a bit above and beyond what the manual specs. I could use your expert eyes to point out anything else that I should expect him to address. The reason I am trying to get him back out here is I really don't think I should have to fork over $800+ to have somebody else fix his screw up.



JP thanks for the PDF with the drop header specs.

clammy

1 long day

yes sir 1 day but the basement had a bilko door right there ,everything i ordered was there with the boiler deliveryat about 7  and the old boilers was outside by the time the new boiler was delivered ,the supply house took the old one.It was myself and 1 other guy i went back the next day and skimmed it we did not have to set up the 2 to 4 die set up just had to do some 2 inch and smaller cutting and threading .Not bad for a old guy 47   but i started at about 6 and finished about 6 so if you call that a day then that's what it was .Another plus was there where promblems or issues other wise it could have gone longer but you got to get lucky once in a while as for drop header i find it much easier to connect 2  boiler risers and also gives you much more room for expansion   and  it gives more room to connect to existing risers .True it is a few more fittings but when faced with low basement cielings it saves ,i am a firm believer in oversized headers and usually always go 1 size over spec i want dry steam and no carry over .I know alot of guys don't have that luxary and there are fighting with other bids and pricing just to keep everybody working for me i am one guy so i can be a little picky being i'm the guy coming back if there is issues so i make sure there are none .There's always somebody else who will do it cheaper and i am fine with that .peae and good luck clammy thanks for the kind words also

Steve_175

Model

It is a Burnham IN5 and yes I have the installation manual. A second riser does not exist on the IN3-IN6 models.

Near as I can tell it has never been skimmed, although the manual says to "drain condensate from drain valve in wet return" and 'Remove safety valve. Pour recommended boil-out compound into boiler thru safety valve opening" Don't know if this was done. I have drained some rusty water from the condensate valve and the feed supply drain from time to time.

The reason I have waited 8 years is that for the first 6 I was renting in this house and then I bought it off my land lord 2 years ago.

Joe V_2

Steve,

I believe the crux of your hartford loop should be 26-5/8" from the floor. by that definitition, it is too low, but you have a probe type LWCO and that is your real protection. the loop predates the low water cut off. And, even though your steam delivery piping looks low, I do not believe you need to worry about wet steam. The ultimate vertical rise looks high enough even though at first blush, it looks too low.



You have not told us what symptoms you have. I can't help but think you have it in for your plumber now that you have new found knowledge. I'm sorry, but eight years is a bit

too long to be complaining. I'm a homeowner myself so I don't have a profession's reputation to protect: but eight years?!?!? And you want the plumber to do a do-over on his own dime? That is not fair! I don't think a court would support your opinion!



Do you or don't you have symptoms that makes you think your boiler is inefficient or dangerous?

jpf321

the hartford can

be above the waterline...at which point it becomes a gifford loop or false water line...I watched one piped like that on purpose to act as a false waterline just make sure you have a close nipple or 45deg-Y to tie it in.

Steve_175

Do not 'have it in'

Did not own the house when it was installed. When it was first installed it had water surging, losing water below LWCO after only a day, vents that clogged up quickly, rads spitting water. When I called about these problems he asked if I had heat and I said yes. At that point he felt nothing was wrong. When I mentioned the other problems he said it was normal for a steam boiler to run out of water in a day if it was cold out. He did send someone out to replace the vents and supposedly 'skim' the boiler. Do not know if anything else was done.

I discovered later how bad the near boiler piping was when a steam expert came out and pointed out the problems to me. Page 17 of the Burnham installation instructions clearly show in the piping diagram that the header has to be a MINIMUM of of 24" above the normal water line. I called Burnham to confirm and they said it was very important to get this done properly.

Yes the boiler gets the house warm but I can only imagine at what cost in efficiency and boiler life. Not to mention going thru vents frequently.

Joe V_2

sorry

i dont know what came over me Steve. Sorry for being short with you.



I dont think your boiler is in danger because of the piping because of the following:



1. you are only using one riser not two so there is no worries of cracking the boiler because of thermal expansion.



2. Even though the near piping is awful, you look like you have an inclined rise that

exceeds 24". So dont believe wet steam is possible.



3. your hartford loop is too low but i have seen several like that and it hasn't been a problem. I know from experience though that when operating at higher pressures that vents will spit and water level will drop. Especially when recovering from a large set back. I fixed that with a vaporstat. when pressure is high enough, and the vent isnt , water will push down in the sight glass and out the vent.



Now, what I think is, you should forget about the original installer. Hire someone else who knows what a drop header is and can pipe one in and position the h loop where it needs to be. It will be worth the peace of mind. I would also consider if all your traps are working because I plan to change mine every four years. Can you tell us what pressure you typically run at?

Charlie from wmass

Not really much extra $

Johnny if you look close at a drop header versus a properly pipe common header the real difference is the pipe used to come up and down from the drop and maybe 2 elbows. I use the same number of fittings for a drop or none drop header as I never go side ways into a tee if I can help it on steam. In big boiler rooms with lots of height I would not use a drop header as you can achieve the dry steam with the help of gravity and properly sized headers.