I thought we did everything right. What do you think?

MacPHJr

Hi guys, we installed two gas fired PIN-4 Burnham steam boilers in August. They replaced two oil fired snow men boilers. Existing piping arrangement consisted of two 2'' supplies. The supplies are also the returns. No Main Vents. No Hartford loop. No Equilizers.



We piped the new boilers according to manual. Cleaned and skimmed boilers and fired them up. No problems in August.



Got big time noise problems in late October. Installed adjustable radiator vents. Checked pitched. No problems till mid Decemeber. Noised returned to one system.



Water level drops. Steam surges. Makes gushing/sucking sounds in risers from main to radiators on 2nd floor. Water looked alittle dirty so we set up to skim boilers again.



Shut down boiler, heard water start to return to boiler. Pulled relief valve to add surgex and got a sucking sound like the chamber was actually in a vacuum.



Skimmed boiler, fired up, no noise for two nights. Noise came back last night.



Attached pics of close boiler piping. Im kinda at a loss.

BobC

no main vents

I'm not a pro but my feeling is that this is a counterflow system and it would benefit greatly from some large steam main vents after the last radiator takeoffs (or as close as you can get from a plumbing point of view).



Steam is a harsh mistress and she is choosy about what violations she will accept without protest. (sorry for that)



As I said, just my initial feelings.



Bob 

MacPHJr

Vents

Mains run pitched back to boiler and end buried up in plaster ceiling in basement.

ttekushan_3

If it worked right at all

it will work right again. A quick glance a the photos don't show any piping problems.



I think you're chasing oils and other occluded contaminants around the system. That's why it shows up after a period of time. It's aggravating, I know, but stick with the skimming. When I've encountered this, I fashion a surface blow off valve at the skim port and run it to a drain. Crack open the valve and let it spit for awhile with the boiler running. Obviously, observe basic safety measures, like keeping children, pets and clients from the steamy parts. You might leave the valve there, capped or plugged for future reference.



Just my 2¢



P.S. I like to run counterflow systems on a vaporstat and slower venting of everything.



EDIT: and for idle curiosity, how are you venting these boilers? It's hard to tell from the photos. You shouldn't encounter condensation on steam equipment exhaust gasses, but I've not dealt with these new side wall vent type steam boilers yet.

Oak Park Electric

Counterflow

I know that "just repipe it" is not what anyone wants to hear, but I suspect that the drip tees may have something to do with it, as well as no vents.  First of all, is there a way to get vents elsewhere in the system, like at the top of the risers?  ( Only if it's totally impossible to do it right with them on the mains )  After that,  the drain tee that is turned to the side and connected with the 45 ell is probably not draining all the way.  I bet there is condensate in that section, maybe running back to the header, then getting pushed out into the system again.  Also check all the old pipes for proper pitch back to the boiler, and no sags.  Don't leave anything to chance.  Check ALL the pipes.  It sounds like water is getting trapped somewhere, causing the low water level and noise.   The vacuum at the relief valve is probably because of no main vents too. It was caused as the steam collapsed after turning the boiler off, and the only air that could get in was a little bit through the rad vents. 

MacPHJr

More than happy to re-pipe

I would be more than happy to re-pipe the system if it would guarentee no more problems, but sadly I dont believe that would be the case.

The mains in the basment have perfect pitch with no sagging, we tripled checked.

We have no access to the risers to add venting.

We turned down the pressuretrols to 2psi and diff to 1psi and it short cycles, Kicks on for ten mintues, off for 5 mintes. Steam moves slower now but still have noise issue.

The noise seams isolated to just one Supply Main that picks up three radiators.

We have the radiators vent set for the lowest possible setting.

How would adding a vapor stat help?

MacPHJr

venting

The manufactuer wants you to use stainless steel vent pipe. We noticed on other installs that the exhaust had a higher moisture content and a steam plume like higher efficiency hot water boilers. Since the vent is pitched back to the boiler we added condesate drip tees to prevent cast iron corrision.

So far the we have collected enough condesate to make it worth the extra fitting and pump.

Danny Scully

Drips

I'm not diagnosing this as the root of your problem, but the drips from the mains should only connect below the waterline. Also, how high is the header from the waterline & how big is the equalizer? Just pulling at straws here, install looks textbook otherwise.

Dan C.

skim

The only thing I don't like is the returns that are tied in above the waterline.  Steam can go through that section of the return and back up the other main.  Other than that, it probably needs to be skimmed.  I have had this problem a lot. Especially with smaller boilers like the IN4.  If it worked right for a while and then you have problems it probably needs to be skimmed again.  if it works well after you skim it then you know that's your problem. 

Mike Kusiak_2

Wondered about that too

Why are the two drips tied together? If there is a pressure differential between the two mains, you will have steam flowing through the drips, possibly impeding the return of condensate.

MacPHJr

Funny thing

Header is 28'' above water line.

We tied the two 3/4'' drip returns together and they drop down below the water line and tie into the boiler.

The equilizer is 1 1/2''.

*Here is the the funny thing, the other boiler we installed in the same building, same size, same radiation, same near boiler piping, works great. No noise. And the water is pretty dirty on that one. Will skim him again once we get past dealing with his noisey brother.

Dave in QCA

Piping Comments, 1 error

Hi, I've been looking at your system.  I do feel your pain and frustration when you have installed 2 systems and 1 is giving you fits.  I suspect that they are not exactly the same....



First observation is the 90 degree el in the middle of the header.  This is not a great idea when it happens to fall between the 2 separate connections to the building mains.  The elbow will cause a very slight pressure drop, and thus the 2 mains will see a VERY slight difference in pressure when steaming.  This would not be a big deal by itself.

The error in the piping that is compounded by the above pressure difference is that your drip legs tie together above the steam line.  Any time you have a horizontal pipe that carries condensate positioned in the system so that it is above the water line, it will also be filled with steam.   Steam and a flow of condensate in a small pipe running in a horizontal position is the perfect formula for producing loud banging water hammer.  This of course is compounded by the fact that your elbow is creating a slight pressure difference between the mains, and thus there is not only condensate and steam in that horizontal connection on the drip line, but steam is also prone to flow throught the pipe as well.  BANG BANG!!

I would recommend that you separate the drips and reconnect them well below the water line.  Also, continue to clean the boiler if it is dirty.  The system would perform a lot better if you had had a good vent at the end of each main.  You could have a good pipe welder install a 3/4" threadolet at the end of each main.   It would be a good idea to correct the drip connections on the other boiler too, if it is in fact piped the same way.

And of course, Don't turn the pressure up as a means to solve the problem!!!

Tell us how this all turns out.

World Plumber

Washing Soda

I agree with Dave:

    Also to get the oil out Peerless recommends using Washing Soda in the boiler. I experimented.  Skimmed as usual everything looked nice and clean then did as they recommend. I never before saw so much oil and gunk come back out of a skim port. You can find it in the Laundry aisle. Download a Peerless manual and read the instructions.

MC

MacPHJr

Will Do

I will get back in there next week to re-pipe the returns. Will follow up with another skimming.

I will let you guys know how we make out.

Thanks for all the input and im looking forward to getting back to you all with good news.