The Plan so far..

Haviara

Gents,

First I want to thank everyone for making this site so great. I have been reading for the last few weeks and have received so many new Ideas as to how to better my system.



What we have:

24 unit 4 story unit in Brooklyn NY 6 apartments per floor

Boiler : A. L. Eastwood, model FST-40, , one-pipe system

Risers vented in 4th floor apartments with a variety of 3/8" Gorton D radiator valves tapping directly into the risers.

No working vents and only one tap in the entire basement.

20 year old Heat-timer EPT set to C with sensor on dry return in center of the building set to 180degrees.

Carlin 701CRD burner.

13,342 gallons of fuel spent last year.



Concerns:

No vaporstat for fine tuned controls:

Old heat timer not calibrated properly anymore.

NO VENTS on the MAINS (the Ds have to do all the work)

When calling for heat the system pressure builds to PSI before cutting out.

Poor insulation

No use of the Hi/Low function of the Carlin

Uneven heating



The grand plan:



-Insulate all basement steam mains with 1" fiberglass pipe insulation

-Install main vents in basement mains to help get my pressure down

-Lower the Pressuretrol to a 1.5psi until I can get a vaporstat

-Install vaporstat and utilize low-high-low burner feature (was previously running on high at all times)

-Upgrade aged controller system to a Tekmar 279 with indoor sensors.



Some questions:

I have read many of the materials suggested by the site and wanted some input on venting the mains.

The longest main in the basement forms a U shape starting at the boiler and ending at one corner of the building. Can I calculate and add all the #2 Vents needed to the end of the main at the picture below or should I add them to stations at the dry returns every 20 feet or so? Is it better to replace these elbows with new ones with a build in tap or can I tap the existing pipe or elbows? (I am afraid of drilling into the wrong spot of the elbow) Lastly, Does has anyone installed a tekmar on a similar building and are you happy with it?

Any input would be great. Thanks all!!

-Peter

Oak Park Electric

Just FYI...

Don't mess with the insulation on the pipes currently.  It's "that special stuff".  Add fiberglass where the pipes are naked.

ttekushan_3

Tekmar 279

I like the 279 a lot, especially with indoor sensor(s). It has a built in time clock for setback if desired and it alters the recovery "lead" time based on how the building recovers temperature over time. I also like the fact that warm weather shut down temperature can be adjusted independently of interior set temperature (unlike the 269 it replaces).



ALSO, a very nice feature is that when using an indoor sensor, the control can alter the total cycle length based on how the building temperature responds to the boiler's operation.



Nice control.

nicholas bonham-carter

making it better

focus on the hardware of the system first, and leave the controls until later. if the heat-timer is non functional, replace it for a while at least,  with a simple thermostat [honeywell visionpro] with a remote sensor in the top north corner [this assumes you have no complicated, zoned system where the heat-timer could actually be needed]

get those main vents installed, and they may in total cost the same as a heat-timer, but are so much more useful! the risers will have to stay with gorton d, unless the tappings are large enough for a gorton #2 [you will apparently now have to buy these on the black market!]

next drop the pressure with a vaporstat, and have a good low-pressure gauge, so you know what is going on.

insulation is on your list, i am glad to see, and if the risers are not able to be insulated, don't worry, as "air is the enemy, to be chased out, like the racoons from the garbage cans!"--nbc

Haviara

Tap locations

Removed double post..

Haviara

Tap locations

Thanks guys.

Yup NBC. The controller is defiantly at the bottom of the list. Like you said in my other post I have to catch up on the differed maintenance. One of my problems is that I am not sure where to add the vents. My main forms a U shape around the building. Can I vent at the end of the U or should I vent at stations at each return? Can you advise on a tapping point? Should I replace the fitting or can I just drill the existing ones?

Thanks !

nicholas bonham-carter

venting locations

just find the original tapping at the end of the dry return, and put your vents there. study the back-pressure during the mains venting phase, and it should be a couple of ounces. as the mains close, then the risers are venting their piping, and if the back-pressure on that phase is too high, new riser vents may be in order, or if they are inaccessible, it may be possible to put more capacious radiator vents on all the top floor rads. the idea is to have all the risers equally vented [or not vented as the case may be]. the desired result is that the top floor radiator surface temperatures are increasing at the same rate, and time. an accurate non-contact thermometer would show you how the heating up is progressing, or some temperature strips from mcmaster-carr.--nbc

Haviara

Other mains

ahhh understood. I will do so and post the results (Whenever I can get those elusive #2s). The pictures above are on 2 shorter mains that have no existing tapping and need one. I am not sure where to put the vents on these.

Dave in QCA

How many Gorton D vents?

Hi,  We tend to get stuck in thinking about vents and the places they should be installed based on the piping scenarios that we most commonly see.  Your building sounds a little bit different, well actually, a whole lot different than a 1 or 2 story residence.  In the buildings we commonly think about, the largest proportion of air in the mains that has to be vented is in that large horizontal main in the basement.  In your buidling, you have 4 story risers, probably a lot of them.  They probably have more air that needs to be vented than the mains in the basement.  How many Gorton D vents do you have at the top of those risers?  Each one is vents the same as a Gorton #1 main vent, so it is possible that you have adequate venting of your main via all of those riser vents.  It all depends on how many you have.  If that non functioning single basement vent is at the end of the main, it certainly needs to be replaced.  Put in a big one!  The recommended location for main vents is at the end, not scattered along the way. I assume that would be at the end of the "U", and hopefully that is where the nonfuctioning main vent is located. 

You mention that you want to get more main vents added "to get your pressure down."  When do you build pressure?  If you are building pressure before the radiators are fully heated, then you are definitely under vented.  However, if the pressure builds after the radiators are hot, venting will not affect that at all. I vaporstat connected to your lo-hi fire control will be a big help.  In the meantime, I would try running it on low fire and see if it is capable of evenly heating up the system.



The whole intention of venting is to get the air out as fast as possible, and for the steam to arrive at each radiator inlet valve at as nearly the same time as possible. 

Regardinging your old Heat Timer controller, the critical question is whether the buidling is overheating.  If you are consistently heating the building to the upper 70s, then a Tekmar 279 will save you a lot of money.  I installed one in the fall of 2008.  My buidling is probably much smaller than yours.  It functions on the same basis as the older heat timer models, but with some distinct advantages. 

Essentially it works as follows:

Calculates the "on" time of the heat cycle based on a linear table that looks at outside temperature. This provides a much more even space temperature than a thermostat that is waiting for the temperature to rise before it shuts of the boiler. 

Begins the timing of the heating cycle when steam reaches the furthes point of the steam main.  (steam established)  This prevents short cycles which fail to get the steam equally distributed.

Uses one or more interior space sensors to provide feedback and adjusts the table so that interior space temp is maintained and not over heated.

Has set up for night set back, which I don't use.   Have too many tenants with night schedules.  If used, it learns how far in advance it needs to begin the warmup. 

Also has settings for warm weather shutdown, and domestic water sensor.  Maintains boiler temp at a minimum temperature for domestic water heating, even during warm weather shutdown if using it for domestic water heating.

By the way....Pex supply has the best price on a Tekmar 279 that I could find.

Haviara

Update on progress.

Gents,

Just want to update you on my progress. I was able to replace the Gorton #1 with a 4 pcs Gorton#2 Station at the end of my long main. It is too early to know for sure but as far as I can tell there should be a big difference. I re calibrated my heat timer after the changes so that it would be satisfied when the furthest radiator in the system was hot and start its cycle. The furthest radiator is now satisfied when the condensate sensor(on a basement return) reaches 170 degrees instead of 180 degrees. So as far as I can tell the burner was running a few minutes less each time it started up with no changes in apt temperatures (still very warm).

Next on the list:

some more insulation where it is missing

Install the remaining vents I purchased.

Vapor-stat to control hi/low burner function.

nicholas bonham-carter

good job!

some more thoughts on main venting: if the top of riser vents were the main source of venting, then i think there would be a difference in the speed of steam arriving into various risers because of the difference in distance from the boiler. i think you are on the right path with the filling the mains first, then the risers can all fill starting at the same time, providing more even heat. this would be exaggerated if the distances between each riser were greater.

if you have a 0-15 ounce gauge, you can see the back-pressure as the venting progresses. an assistant could tell you when the risers have started to fill, and during that time the back-pressure will help you determine whether the riser vents are large enough. the back-pressure should probably be very low for the main vents, and slightly higher for the riser venting.--nbc