Leaky Joints On New Steam Piping Install

DP1982

<span style="font-size:12pt">Good Morning All – I recently (12/31/2010) had my 50+ year old peerless gas conversion boiler replaced with a new gas Weil-McClain PEG-40. As part of this replacement the plumber also installed new near boiler piping as he stated the old piping was not up to current design standards. All was well for a day or two however I have now noticed that in two locations there are now leaky thread joints. I can hear hissing and see some steam and water forming. The plumber came back yesterday to skim and to review the issue. However this morning when I fired up the boiler the same issues in the exact same areas occurred. I was not able to be home yesterday when the plumber came so I do not know what he did, I actually feel he did not address the leaking issue at all so my question to all of you is; is there any material or compound I can use to plug up the leak? I am going to call the company again but I feel I am going to hit a dead end. I am so frustrated that I just spent all of this money and now have a leaky riser. </span>

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<span style="font-size:12pt">On a side note the Pressuretrol is on the lowest setting.</span>

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<span style="font-size:12pt">Thanks for your time</span>

Charlie from wmass

mark the leaks

call them back say you prefer the water and steam to stay in the pipes. That is what you paid for. Ant thing else is just a cob job. It's new it should not leak.

nicholas bonham-carter

lowest setting?

your system may actually be getting more pressure now with the "lowest point" setting. on my new boiler, as i lowered settings on the supplied pressuretrol, the pressure actually increased to 10 psi!

this one reason i think the pressuretrol is only there to keep the pages of the installation manual open, as it seems useless at controlling the pressure accurately!

while he is correcting the leaking threads, get him to put a vaporstat and good low-pressure gauge on the same pigtail as the equally useless code required 0-30 psi gauge.--nbc

DP1982

Thanks

Charlie/NBC,

Thank you both for your quick responses. I will call back and demand the fix to the pipes again. However should they be deadbeats or this issue occur in the future is there anything a regular non-technical homeowner can do?

Thanks again!

nicholas bonham-carter

pressure, pressure, pressure

verify the pressure with the appropriate gauge, and get it down below 1.5 psi for basic function, and below 12 ounces for comfort and economy. do not rely on the useless 0-30 psi gauge!

the threaded joints will probably have to be taken apart and redone, while making sure no ill fitting sections of pipe are putting unnatural strain on the joints. this will be fairly easy as they are new joints, but more difficult next year as rust rears its ugly head!--nbc

DP1982

Got it

Thanks for the guidance it is greatly appreciated.

jpf321

maybe not water ...

after my new boiler install this past Fall .. what i thought was water dripping from the joints turned out to be oil that was seeping out (introduced from the threading process) .. it all cleared up in a couple of days. it may be useful to let it drip into a glass already with some water in it .. and see if it floats or mixes homogeneously .. if it floats, it's oil and i would give it a week or so. as the pipes heat up, the oil thins substantially so that it seems like the viscosity of water.



of course, we'd love some pictures of this repiping job which is up to "current design standards"



lastly, they do make a paste that turns bright purple when it meets water, that may be another way to indicate whether it's water or oil ..  http://www.simplyplumbing.com/comstarinterna-60-406.html

Charlie from wmass

Nicholas

I have installed a "few" pressuretrols and if your system goes to 10 psi something is wrong with the wiring or the piping or the pressuretrol.

DP1982

JPF

Thanks for the advice, I will definitely try that this evening however and unfortunately I am pretty sure it is condensate. It pools on the lip of one of the fittings before it drips down the exterior of the pipe. When it pools it you can see that it is absolutely clear.

 

I will also take some photos of the pipe work as maybe he missed something during the install. Also I know I need to insulate the piping but I have left it off for now so 1) I can see any other leaks and 2) incase the pipes need to be removed.

nicholas bonham-carter

straight out of the box

it did straight out of the peerless boiler box, and so that's when i got a vaporstat. now i am at 1-2 oz. of backpressure.--nbc

DP1982

Photo Follow Uo

Good Evening,

As requested attached are some photos of the new boiler and near boiler piping. The two joints are still leaking as of tonight however they are not as bad, it seems like the leaking is worse when the boiler has not been running for a while (i.e. first run of the day)

Any comments on the piping itself? Does it look like it was done correctly for a one pipe system?

One other question for the experts; the boiler has been shutting down a few times before my house gets to the desired temp. From watching the pressure gauge it appears that it is being tripped out by the Pressuretrol. Any idea why the pressure would keep rising on a new install?

I really appreciate all of the help, this is my first house and adventure with steam heat. I will be investing in the book set soon!

j a_2

not by the book

Sorry, however I don't think that boiler is piped correctly or the photo is not clear...It shows the Hartford loop installed well below the normal two inch's below the normal water line...I don't like to see malleable fittings used on steam,but that just might be me...Also where is the insulation, you are losing good steam before it even gets out of the near boiler piping...No pipe should leak, have it fixed immediately and accept nothing less....I see a few other blunders but I am sure others will jump in as well...

Steamhead

Header looks too small

I think they used 2" piping but the manual says to use at least 2-1/2". This will definitely cause wet steam. 

jpf321

radioactive water?

does that water glow in the dark? .. sorry I couldn't help it.maybe they used "dry steam powder" but I think they used much more than the directions call for.

DP1982

Follow Up

Good Morning,

 

Thanks for all of your comments.

 

JA – What are the negatives of the Hartford Loop being installed to low? Also I will be placing insulation on the pipes once the two leaks are fixed, I don’t want it to get wet and have to already be replaced.

 

Steamhead – Do you think the conversion to 2 ½” piping on the riser be difficult/costly for the plumber to correct?

 

JPF – I completely agree with you, I was very alarmed when I saw the water, should I drain it out?

 

Lastly as I brought up last night the boiler has been shutting down a few times before my house gets to the desired temp. From watching the pressure gauge it appears that it is being tripped out by the Pressuretrol. Any idea why the pressure would keep rising on a new install?

BobC

Should be per the manual

If the manual specifies 2-1/2" for the header then that is what has to be used for proper operation of the boiler. If the contract you signed specified 2" it's your fault but otherwise the installer has to make it right.



Did the installer skim the boiler after it was installed? Usually they come back a few days later and flush and skim the system; it takes a couple of days for all the crud from the new piping to come down and it can take longer.



Did you installer survey all your radiators to see what the heating load was or did he just replace your boiler with something like your old one? The boiler should have been sized to be 20-30% larger than the load it drives, but sometimes they don't make a boiler that exact size so he goes up to the next available size. . If your boiler is perfectly sized to the system it will run constantly on a design day, on warmer days it will run less and may or may not build enough pressure to trip the pressuretrol. Most boilers are oversized so it's normal for them to shut down on pressure before the thermostat is satisfied.



Bob

DP1982

Bob

My contract did not state a specific pipe size just that the install would include the related piping. As for the skiming, yes he did come back a few days later. I believed he completed the skim because he added a new pipe off the side and there was water all over the floor. This was also when I noticed the neon green water in the site glass. According to the installer they did do a heating load calc and I was home when they toured my home to count radiators. I had a few installers from different firms come out and they all seemed to recommend the same boiler size so hopefully that is a good sing that it is sized appropriately. I have a call into them to bring up my concerns, hopefully they will follow up.

 

Is there anyway to reduce the pressure in a steam system?  

Matthew Grallert

radio active

Is that polyethylene glycol (anti freeze) I see in the boiler!?  Maybe not radio active, but toxic.

peace

BobC

Pressure

Make sure the white dial on the inside of the pressuretrol is set to 1, that would have the boiler cycling between 0.5 and 1.5PSI. The 0-30 gauge on the boiler really is not very useful at low pressure, you would have to add an auxiliary 0-3PSI to really see whats going on.



To get lower pressure you would have to replace the pressuretrol with a vaporstat; that would let you get down to much lower pressure but they don't give them away.



If you see a lot of bouncing in the sight glass after the piping is fixed, the boiler may have to be flushed or skimmed again.



Bob

jpf321

he's tripping on pressure

the only ways to reduce it:

1 install more radiators

2 install a smaller boiler

3 see of it can be downfired..lowering the burn rate or pressure...left only to a professional.



lowering the pressure controls will only cause it to trip more often...but it will limit the pressure across the system

jpf321

find it exactly what was added

and exactly how much was supposed to be added as per the directions on the packaging

kevin_58

green water

The green stuff in the water is steam clean. Its color coded when it turns green you added enough. However its main ingredent is sodium carbonate, The same stuff that is in washing soda.In dans book it says sodium carbonate turns into carbonic acid in a steam system so drain and flush it out.

DP1982

Follow-up

Good Afternoon - I was able to get the service tech out over the weekend and get the leaking pipes addressed. Hopefully they hold and I can put this issue behind me.

As for the rising pressure issue; the tech stated that this was normal and that the pressuretrol was just doing its job. While this may be the case, from what I have been reading on here the boiler should just be running at a more steady lower psi. Would adding a larger main vent or more main vents help the boiler run at a lower pressure? Seeing that I just bought this boiler, swapping it out for a smaller one is not an option. I also have no more rooms to add more radiators.

Thanks again you all have been great!

brian_44

Have your installer pipe to satisfaction

You should in no way accept any leaking whatsoever in your installation. You're looking at a big investment...and leaks will only cause more problems down the road (plus why would you insulate a leaking pipe?) Hope it's resolved.



How long is your boiler running before pressure rise?

DP1982

Timing

40 - 45 min till cutout

brian_44

When it cuts out...

is it cutting out right now at about 1.5 to 2.0 psi, or is it higher than that?



As mentioned earlier, I'd make sure your venting is adequate (on mains as well as Rads). Make sure you have quality vents on your radiators too.

Dave in QCA

Clarify...

Are you saying that the boiler runs for 40-45 minutes before the pressure gets up to 1.5 lbs, and the pressuretrol cuts out?     If that is the case.... That is probably just fine.   I would imagine that during most cycles, with your thermostat left at a constant temperature, that you boiler will not fire for 45 minutes.  You're pressuretrol is a high limit device.  If it takes 45 minutes to build pressure, and if at that time all of your raditors are fully heated, it would sound like your system is working perfectly.

DP1982

Dave

I actually moved the pressure cut-out slightly higher as it would cycle way to often at the .5 - 1.5 level. The boiler will heat for 40 min and then get tripped out when it hits 3 - 4 psi. After that the pressure reduces and it comes back on this second round usually getting the temp up to the termostat setting before cutting out again.

Dave in QCA

Max Pressure is 2 psi

A residential one pipe steam system should never exceed 2 psi.

You indicate that the system starts to cut out on the pressuretrol after 40 mins, but that is with the pressuretrol cranked up.  Turn that thing back down!  Running the boiler continuously at pressures higher than necessary wastes energy and can cause excessive wear and/or damage to the vents on your system.

When your boiler runs long enough that it cuts off on pressure, are you coming out of a set back?  You indicate that after once shut down on pressure, the space comes up to temperature, and shuts of on the thermostat.  This tells me that you are bringing the space up to temp, and probably from a set back.  

The job of the pressuretrol is to shut off the boiler when it reaches a maximum desirable pressure, then to start the boiler up when the pressure drops.  This all occurs during the course of a continuous demand for heat from the thermostat.  That is what it is supposed to do.  During the course of a long cycle, caused by demand by the thermostat, the pressuretrol may stop and start the boiler several times.  That is what it is supposed to do.  You seem to be caught up in an effort to stop that.   Why?

Are all of your radiators turned on?  If so, your boiler may be sized a little larger than necessary for your system.

DP1982

Correct...

This scenario occurs 98% of the time when coming back on after a set back. The reason I was so concerned with the cycling was from reading all the post on this site that state my boiler should not exceed 1.5 to 2 psi. I thought that meant the pressure should always be that level and should never hit the cut-out. Thanks for clarifying, I will adjust back down.

Follow up question, if I need more venting (i.e. if the boiler is slightly over sized) is it possible to add two main vents in the same location as the single original by using a "t" fitting with 2 90 degree elbows? This would save me from having to cut into a main elsewhere.



Thanks!

Dave in QCA

Two vents intalled together

Yes, two vents can be installed together in an antler or menorah arragement.  There are tons of examples on this site. 

However, more vents will not make your boiler be any better matched to your system than it is now.  How long does it take for steam to get to your main vent after the point that the boiler begins to make steam.  It should be in the area of 2-3 minutes.  Are you building pressure during that time?  You should not be seeing more than 1-2 oz of pressure as the steam is running down the main toward the main vent.  Once the steam arrives at the main vent, it closes.  After that, it has no more effect on the system.  This should help you know whether you need more main venting or not.  What type of vent do you currently have.  Does it properly close when the steam arrives?

DP1982

Testing

I will run this test tonight and review the type of main vent, thanks for your assistance it is greatly appreciated!