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I have a WM-EG55 with 377 EDR

crash2009
crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
conected to it.  Thanks to the guys over in the steam section.  This boiler has been RE-piped,insulated,vented,gauged,pigtailed, flushed, skimmed, come to think of it, just about RE-EVERTHINGED.  It is heating the building excellently with long run cycles and weather imposed off times. 

The only problem, or what I perceive as a problem, is lack of operating pressure.  During a run cycle the pressure gauge has never exceeded .07 psi, and the norm is .04psi.  We have finally come to the conclusion that "either the EDR is more than 377 or the boiler is not putting out 510"  I was instructed to clock the gas meter.  I calculated the boiler input to be 153,000 btu/hr.  I am awaiting a pro with a combustion analyzer. 

Here is a link to the thread <a href="http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/132580/Pressure">http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/132580/Pressure</a>  Its a long thread, skip down to Jan1,2011

Can someone help me understand how a combustion analyzer can match the boiler input to the required need?  How do I calculate what my need really is?  and finally, If it does turn out that this boilers current setup is 81% efficient, what efficiency would I expect after being set up properly? 

Thank-you for reading

Comments

  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,195
    Crash your boiler

    is an atmospheric gas boiler. Fire rating is set by the original factory specs. If you hard a power burner such as a Carlin in a wet base boiler you could adjust fire rating. If you had an oil boiler you could adjust the nozzle size. The analyzer in your case is to make sure it is burning to factory specs. with the meter reading you posted in the steam section it sounds like the boiler is not firing to its full rate. Too long of a firing time on a single fire rating atmospheric boiler causes lots of heat loss out the chimney. If you get to pressure and shut off the boiler uses no gas until the heat from the steam is used up.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,195
    How old is your boiler?

    The current rating is 521 square feet for the eg55. maybe it is a 45?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    I don't know

     exactly how old it is.  The previous owner said they replaced it in about 2004.  When I asked him "Why does the boiler look so beat up then?" he replied, and swore on a stack of bibles, that it was a 2004 inside a 30 year old skin.  I further questioned him "You put in a new section?" he said no, everything new, burner too.  There must be a casting number in there somewhere that I could check sometime.  But at present all I have is this guys word.  and the numbers off a 30 year old info stamp.  It appears to fit inside the skin OK. Thanks for digging a little deeper Charlie.
  • Mike Kusiak_2
    Mike Kusiak_2 Member Posts: 604
    Boiler model?

    Crash, how many burners does your boiler have? The EG55 should have 8 burners, while a EG45 would only have 6.
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    The boiler has

     8 burner tubes. 
  • Mike Kusiak_2
    Mike Kusiak_2 Member Posts: 604
    Next question

    So it is definitely an EG55. The next question is why is it underfired. Some possibilities are you have low gas pressure to the gas valve, the gas valve is bad, or someone turned down the manifold pressure. This is where you need to get someone to come in with the proper equipment and measure the gas pressures. If the manifold pressure is less than 3.5 inches WC, then that would explain why you seem to be firing at less than the 200k BTU spec.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,195
    or they used

    the wrong orifices. Who puts a new 55 in a 30 year old jacket? It needs checked out with gauges for sure.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Could you help me eliminate

     the gas line as being part of the problem?  I marked the photo with numbers corresponding to the numbers below. 

    1- Starting at the DTE meter we have a 1" line going into the boiler room.

    2- Is a 3/4" line that goes to the 25,000 input dryer.  It is reduced further down the line to what looks like 1/2" copper tubing. 

    3- Is self explanitory

    4- Is self explanitory

    5- Is the 1/2" X 1/2" X 1" reducing T

    6- Goes to an 80,000 input hot water heater.

    7- Goes to the 200,000 EG-55

    8- As you can see is plugged.

    Thanks for looking
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,195
    Here in Mass we

    use longest run method. That is you take the longest run of the gas line from the meter and use that column to size each branch not matter how far it is from the meter. Looks like a small gas pipe to me. Also copper is not allowed for Natural gas piping in my area. CSST or black iron only.

    How far is it roughly from the meter to the farthest appliance?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,195
    edited January 2011
    Check chart on page 19

    of the installation manual. over 10 feet it needs to be 1" just for the boiler. Can you label the pipe sizes? And bushings are not allowed either due to chance of sand holes.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    It is 23 feet

     of 1" from the gas meter to the intersection in the picture.  From there is where everthing is distributed to 3 branches

    Then its 12 feet of 1/2" steel to the boiler

    Then its 15 feet of 1/2" steel to the hot water heater

    Then its 24 feet to the dryer.  16' of 3/4" plus 8' of 1/2' copper

    Not sure if this is what you were asking but from the gas meter the farthest appliance is the dryer which is is 47' from the meter.
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    So now I am looking at the manual,

     page 19, like you said.  There is a little chart there with a whole bunch of numbers.  I am trying to calculate what size of pipe I need, from the gas meter to the boiler.  No other appliances, just the boiler.  So I start with the boiler input which is 200,000 then divide by 1000 to get the cubic feet per hour which comes to 200.  Lets just say its 32 feet from the gas meter to the boiler.  Then I look down the column for 32 feet, no 32, go next length up, 40 feet.  hmmmm

    I see how you did that so fast.  50 feet of 1" will run 215 feet/hr.  I thought RTFM was just an expression. I didn't think people actually did it.  Thank-you  

    So now I'm gonna have to add re-pipe the gas line to all the other RE's I've done.

    Now back to the chart.  If I add all the inputs from all the appliances I get 305,000 then divide by 1000 to get 305 cubic feet per hour.  Use the farthest appliance on  the chart 50 feet,  1.25" will move 440. 

    How close to the appliances does the new gas supply have to be?
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    There may be another way.

    I am not a professional, but when they put gas into my house and ran a line to the gas boiler, they did not measure anything. They put in 1-inch black pipe. They said the inspector would accept nothing smaller. They ran that from the meter into the garage, up the wall. They then ran 1-inch yellow flex pipe across the garage to an elbow and 1-inch down to near the boiler. They then but in a reducer to 3/4 inch because they said the inspector wanted that size for the shut-off valve. They put in a 3/4" valve and a reducer to 1/2 inch, a T with a short nipple and a cap. Out the side of the T went some nipples, elbows, etc., into the boiler that is 1/2 inch. There is a union in there somewhere, but I forget just where. The boiler is 80,000 BTU/hr input, and no other gas is used in the house.



    They did not have to calculate anything. They knew what the inspector wanted, and used that.



    About 25 years ago, they put gas into the Quaker Meeting that I attend. They have two forced hot air furnaces, each is 125,000 BTU/hr input. No other gas is used in the building. They ran pipe that is aluminum-colored, but I am sure it is not aluminum. It is not black. It is either 1-inch or 1 1/4 inch. I guess it is less than 40 feet long.It comes to a T, and drops down to the first furnace, reduces in size, comes to an elbow and drops down to the other. The drops are smaller; I do not know if 3/4 or 1/2. They did not seem to measure that either. They seemed to know what the inspector wanted and did that.



    In each case, they may have measured the distances with their calibrated eyeballs, but they certainly did not refer to tables to determine the required diameters.



    Whatever that pipe is made of is the same color as the color of the pipe that comes out of the ground that has been installed by the gas company.
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    edited January 2011
    It appears that the CF/hr

     needs of the appliances have grown since this home was built.  The present main gas line 1" will only move 200 CF/hr.  200 CF/hr is the amount that the present boiler needs all by itself.  The present needs are 305 CF/hr.  Using the next size up theory, If the main gas line from the meter to within 10 feet of the appliances, was upgraded to 1.25", the building would have the capacity to provide 440 CF/hr. 

    I believe this oversight took place during the transition from fuel oil to natural gas.  This condition has existed for many decades.

    While it is agreed that the 1" line is insufficient to run all the appliances at the same time.  This does not explain the boiler meter clocking of 153 CF/hr, because the boiler had the entire 1" line to itself.  This suggests that further research and testing is nescesary to see the entire problem.

    Thank-you, Mike for figuring out what kind of boiler we have, and Charlie for figuring the supply line. Some additional info on the pipe sizing requirements of natural gas: http://www.propane-generators.com/natural-gas-chart.htm

    Proposed main gas line upgrade:
  • World Plumber
    World Plumber Member Posts: 389
    consider any additions

    Before you repipe consider any additions you might add; dryer, fire place, outdoor grill, range/oven. I have a 2" gas main factoring in the possibility of adding a fire place, dryer and water heater with the slight possibility of the boiler, 2 ovens and range top, fire place, water heater and grill running at the same time. My boiler is 200K BTU and the range and ovens max 170K BTU. If you repipe going up the one size now is a lot less than redoing it in the future again. 
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    "get-buy for the winter"

      is what I am thinking about now.  It appears that the 1/2" line from the boiler to the 1" supply is the bottleneck that is preventing me from further troubleshooting to the boiler.  "If" I replace the 1/2" with 1" that will eliminate the restriction.  Is this "backwoods thinking?" 
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,766
    might as well replace that 1/2" now

    Crash, with that 1/2 replaced with 1", you should fire the boiler at its correct rate if nothing else is running.  If both of the other appliances are running, it looks like you might be ok, but it would be marginal.  At any rate, you will be able to trouble shoot to see if you have additional problems with your boiler regulator, valve, orifaces, etc.

    Does your boiler have a separate regulator?  If so, it is easy to adjust a bit, but don't do it until you have replaced that 1/2 pipe.  Someone who knows how to test the manifold pressure would be a good resource and money well spent at this point, (after replacing that 1/2")
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,195
    Your welcome

    It is nice to be thanked and I think I speak for all the people that contribute here that the thank yous are appreciated.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,766
    edited January 2011
    Thank you?

    Speak for yourself, Charlie.  I had something more in mind than a simple "thank you" !!  



    I was hoping that Crash would offer to paint my boiler room!  His is pretty darn snazzy, and I'm feeling jealous! 



    Drop header, great piping, brand new insulation, a perfectly tuned boiler, and now his boiler room looks like one of those advertisements for oil heat in the 1940s, that showed how nice your basement could look as a "rec" room once you got rid of the coal!

    All kidding aside,



    WELL DONE CRASH!!
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Thanks for the complements guys

      This room was not planned to be this way, it just kinda turned out that way.  It was about time for a little tune-up and a safety upgrade.  Pat Girioux, the guy that re-piped the boiler, put his elbow through the 1/4' drywall a few times, then we took down the old ceiling hung range boiler, most of the ceiling came down with it.  So, you know, the drill if you have tenants.  Double 5/8" drywall. and a few pails of mud. Then you gotta paint the wall and ceiling, You get the nescesary stuff done and it makes the rest look worse, so you paint the whole thing.  Then some guy named Mark, has this bright idea that I should clock the meter, Charlie concurs and points out the gas line is only 1/2".  Then I find out the meter was pissin through a straw to get to the boiler.  Then after 3 months of trying to find out why I don't have any pressure, and finally get some, I find out 6 rad valve stems, and 2 rad unions are leaking.  But it feels good that things are progressing and the needle on the 0-3 sure looks good.  I am a little behind schedule, I expected to be installing a vaporstat by now.
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