Combination Fill Valve and Backflow Preventers Help

Warthawg

Can I replace just the fill valve?  It is leaking pretty good and I believe this is causing pressure fluctuations in the boiler.

icesailor

Leaking:

Usually, it's the 9D backflow that the PRV is leaking and not the backflow?

You can replace them only. You need a bug hex wremch socket to do it easily.

billtwocase

sugestion

Try to replace it with a Conbraco. Much more reliable

j a_2

close the valve

Your fill valve should be closed....It is not a good idea to leave it open as there is no need to replenish the water once it is completley filled.......If you are losing water you have a problem, it can only lead to trouble...Similar to a cars coolent system low water means a leak

billtwocase

unless

you have a low water cut off for the system, the feed should be left on

j a_2

I dont agree

Sorry but why would you leave it on once the system is filled ?  Makes no sense to me... A very commonly used mod con manual says to leave it closed....I do like the idea of a low water cutoff

billtwocase

ever see

A split boiler? No low water cut off, no water, no good situation. Although I agree that unless there is a leak, it should be fine, but with any sort of auto air elimination in place, every hiss lowers the pressure on the system until it is 0. 

j a_2

still dont agree

The fill valve is in no way a safety valve nor should you consider it one...A fill valve combo sets the initial pressure and that is it....If one wants to spend the money on one that is fine...I don't ever leave them open..unless the manual says so....;If you really want to leave it open, I think most boiler manufactures require you to install a water meter...Fresh water is bad for most residential boilers..So is boiler water bad for your domestic water system

icesailor

Fill Valves:

JA, You are dead wrong. The fill valve is supposed to be on. Ask your insurance company if you are covered if you close the valve, the boiler breaks and the boiler is damaged and/or caused damage. And backflow devices protect the potablw water systems.

You may think it is correct to leave them off. That doesn't mean it is correct.

And, there is one verfy important reason that the fill valve must be left open. Know what it is?

Hint: it has to do with a thing like the boiler that won the $1000.00 prize.

Eric_32

suppose..

currently the boiler is fine, no problems. Now a month later the boiler drain develops a leak, someone bumps it or whatever, and doesn't notice it at first,  no make-up water = no water in the boiler. Not good, better to have the floor get wet and leave the water feed on, than replace the boiler because of a cracked section.

I have never left the feed off, if you are doing that why even install it, just put in a plain ol ball valve, save yourself the $80.00

j a_2

listen less read more

I  still stand behind what I say, I suggest you read your installation manuals more closley...Also I=B=R guide section 3  components of a hydronic hot water heating system.....The reason I like this site is each and every day I learn..j a

j a_2

close it

Can you tell me what manufacture says leave it open...I would be very interested..Also have you read the I=B=R guide ?   It is our responsibilty to install it by the book then present the homeowner the homeowners guide 

Jean-David Beyer

Fill valve on or off?

My  W-M Ultra 3 came with an installation manual that is around 100 pages long. I looked in there for whether the fill valve should be left on or off, and it is silent on that point. My insurance policy says nothing about it either. I looked in John Siegenthaler's big book, second edition, and he discusses this, remarks that it is controversial, and concludes that he would leave it off. One problem with leaving it on is that a leak would be hidden until it got so bad as to cause major damage. A second problem is more serious:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/203/Low-water-cutoffs-belong-on-ALL-boilers

icesailor

PRV valves, on or off:

I suggest to you that reading your insurance policy will not provide you with the answer you seek because it is in some clause that covers all forms of stupidity and the insurance company isn't responsible for the stupidity of others. If you leave it off, and there is a problem, and there is a loss, someone is responsible, is going to be blamed. How an insurance adjuster decides responsibility, determines who will pay.

You may think it is a fine idea to leave it off. You are the first person I have ever heard/read that advocates leaving the PRV/fill valve off at all times. It's not industry standard. If LWCO's are required on commercial boilers, one could think that the standard is that they be on.

Your logic would say that you don't need a Hartford Loop (Named after the Hartford Insurance Co that required them, way back). so why bother.

I suggest that you check with YOUR liability insurer and check with an adjuster that specializes in these type of cases. If they both say it is OK, get them to put it in writing and get it notarized.

Better yet, ask this over on Dragon Talk. See what George has to say about it. He is recognized by the court as an expert in heating issues and testifies in court regularly.

Do what you want. It's like talking and texting while driving. It isn't a problem until you have an accident and it is your fault because you were distracted and avoidable.

icesailor

Close it:

I believe it isn't in there because it comes under the heading of best customary practices. It is implied. Just because you don't agree it is so, doesn't make it not so.

I just got off the phone with the Plumbing Inspector where I work. Some guy (owner) called me about his house needing some plumbing done because the owner did his own plumbing and he did his plumbing without a permit or inspections. He took the inspector to court. He claims he won. IMHO, the only thing ruled in his favor was that the inspector couldn't be mean and unreasonable to him. But, the owner would need to replace anything the inspector felt didn't meet Code. According to the owner.

According to the inspector, he applied for a permit as the homeowner to do the plumbing and gas piping. The inspector denied him because he isn't a licensed Journeyman Plumber in the Commonwealth of MA. The owner did it anyway. He applied for a CO when done. The building department refused. This inspector is more than reasonable. I have never had a problem with him.

The guy called me. I guess he has called everyone else. I saw the house being built. It was built by a group of yahoo immigrant imports. The owner is 80 years old. I doubt that the owner was drilling 4" holes through floor joists on a step ladder with a Hole Hawg.

The fine for this is 4 times the cost of the plumbing permit. Add his legal fees to all other expenses and he could have flown Mr. Garrity from Lee, MA and his crew  out to do this job and still be ahead of the game. His perception of the situation was that as a homeowner, he could do whatever he liked. That's his perception. It isn't a problem until it is a problem.

icesailor

PRV/Dept. of Public Safety:

JA, you seem like a reasoable type guy by your past postings.

Why not call the Department of Public Safety in Boston, division of boiler inspections and ask them what they think. If they think it is fine, without a LWCO, so be it. I'll still leave mine on but you will then be correct. But be sure to ask them if that absolves you or any responsibility for low water damage if thir is no LWCO and there is a problem.

You can find them on-line. 

DanHolohan

Here's a link to the B&G I/O manual

Note how they insist that the fill valve be off once used to fill the system. That has been their position for as long as I've been in the business:



http://www.blueridgecompany.com/documents/PressureReduceValves.pdf

Mark Eatherton

Agreement to disagreement...

Whenever possible, I like to install a low pressure cut off AND a low water cut off. I like wearing suspenders with my belt. No plumbers cracks around here :-)



Here's a story of interest to anyone in the hydronic heating business. First off, the biggest regular annual claim for loss comes from water damage. FACT as George L says...



Many years ago, I had installed a closed loop heating system in an occasional use cabin in the mountains. The owner didn't want anti freeze (neither did I) and it was before we actually started using LWCO's. Anyway, long story short, a 1" soldered elbow decided to cut loose, and lost water going to the second floor DHW tank. The water ran for approximately one week without notice. It destroyed the interior finishes from the 2nd floor down to the crawl space, including counters, cabinets, floors, walls etc. Almost a complete total for the insurance company. They freaked out, and said "What exactly is it you guys do?" When we explained that we had installed RFH in the cabin, they REALLY freaked out. "You have one linear foot of pipe for every square foot of living space!" We tried explaining to them that it was low pressure (12 PSI) but it didn't really set well in light of the damage that had been incurred. They fought the homeowner stating that his HO insurance should cover it, and not our liability insurance.



Our insurance company told us that we MUST take some sort of drastic action if they were to continue to take our money, and MAYBE cover any water damage claims we would potentially create....



Enter the PIG. We had been using the PIG for maintaining pressure in closed loop snow melt systems for many years. It is essentially two expansion tanks. One for the actual fluid expansion, and the other one for a reservoir, maintained at a high enough pressure to be run through the usual pressure reducing valve and to compensate for the minor fluid loss associated with deaeration on start up. It will also compensate for any minor joint leakage, but will eventually run out of fluid, and cause the low pressure cut out to activate, there by shutting down the heating plant, and potentially exposing the dwelling to even more damage from frozen and broken potable water lines, but it is what our insurance company demanded, so it became the company standard. Not usually a problem here in the city, but could be a real issue in occasional use settings, like this. But that could be a problem if an ignitor or gas valve failed as well, so it wasn't really a major issue. Nonetheless, we started adding the cost of a remote dial out Freeze Alarm in their occasional use homes, where possible.



When it came time for inspection, the inspectors stood there, scratching their heads in amazement at what we were doing. One of them called us on the carpet (old school guy) and said we MUST have a continual source of make up water to the boiler. We asked him to show us where in the code book that it said that, to which he replied, "It's on the bottom of every page..." (Subject to AHJ's inspection and interpretation) After a brief tussle, and a copy of our insurance companies letter confirming their request, he relented and passed us. Many inspectors said "Why isn't this the standard in the industry? It makes so much sense". Good question.



Some times, we get SO used to doing things a certain way, that we find it hard to change our ways (See pumps on the system returns...)



So, the bottom line with the former employer was to use the PIG (Pressure Induced Glycol) pressurization package, along with low pressure cut out (usually on board of the newer boilers AND a low water cut off (belts and suspenders) and NO solid connection to the make up water.



Shutting off the make up water without having some means of low water protection is risky at best, regardless of what the make up valves manufacturers says. In my book, if it doesn't have a low water cut off, it NEEDS one, and once it has one, it is safe to turn the make up water off, but what is to keep the HO or a less knowledgeable technician from turning it back on? And then, who is responsible for any water damage that gets done due to the make up water being turned back on? If it is completely disconnected from the potable water, and requires a double female hose to make it up, then it is clearly defined. (WHO left the hose connected?)



Commercially, in multi family settings there are a MILLION small leaks throughout the system (packing glands, threaded joints, poorly soldered joints etc), and it is virtually impossible to shut off the make up without creating a lot of hate and discontent. In those situations, we invented a device called a EFE (pronounced eh-fee) which is essentially a swing check valve installed backwards at a 45 degree angle. The check flapper hangs down, half way between open and closed, and allows small, slow moving amounts of water to be drawn through it to compensate for all the small evaporating leaks occurring within the system. If a pipe should burst, and cause a significant flow, the EFE (Excess Flow Eliminator) kicks in, and shuts off flow and keeps people from surfing down the hall way. There is a fast fill bypass feature that is piped around the EFE for purposes of initial fill and purge, and when full, the bypass valve handle is removed and hidden under the cover of the boiler where NO ONE ever bothers to look...:-)



BTW, the insurance company seriously was considering making this a REQUIREMENT if its hydronic heating contractors. Only problem was, that they didn't have separate coverage from Plumbing versus Hydronics. It was all lumped into the Plumbing category.



Bottom line, if you are going to cut off someone's make up water without providing some means of back up protection against low water, dry fire conditions, you are taking a BIG bite out of the liability sandwich, and it may cause you to choke.



I believe the newest versions of the code REQUIRE low water cut off protection regardless of whether system piping is above or below the boiler (use to only be required residentially if piping was below the heated vessel) residentially or commercially. I know that some of Dans friends sell TWO low water cut offs on every job. The consumer is looking to us to provide them the best, safest service possible. Sell them a LWCO or LPCO or both, and sleep better at night knowing that you've done the best you can do with the resources you had at hand.



On a side note, the company I use to work for was seriously considering patenting this methodology, and running it through U.L so that we could offer our customers an insurance discount for using it on their systems (insurance cost for hydronic homes is higher than non hydronic homes due to water/mold exposure). It got lost in the rush of things. Maybe Watts Industries (Jim, ya listening?) will pick up on it and carry it forward. Our pockets just weren't deep enough and we didn't have enough free time to pursue it.



HTH Travel safe out there.



ME

icesailor

Seat Belts:

Dan,

You don't need to wear a seat belt when driving a car unless you are in an accident.

B&G may say that. Fine.

I guess I was under the mistaken about one function of a heating relief valve. T& PR valves included. That they are rated in some MBH per hour or some amount of pounds per hour. That what helped the valve to work is that if either the temperature or pressure rises above established standards, cold water would flow into the vessel and the BTU/Hr required to raise the water temperature to above safe levels becomes part of the function of the valve. I have seen quite a few HW boilers fail by cracking because the CI 1156F PRV's plugged up from rust and didn't pass water. Steam boilers are basically open pots of boiling water. The PR relief valves for steam boilers are 15# aren't they? And HO closed loop boilers have 30# relief valves? The boilers I have seen cracked with plugged CI 1156F's cracked while running and on high limit with the water level below the limit well. LWCO's should be required on ALL boilers but they are not. What happens to a boiler, under pressure, firing with no water above the well and trying to satisfy a load it can't sense and it is way above 212 degrees. And the boiler cracks? And the boiler internal pressure drops to zero. Does the rule of 1 cup of water converts to 1200 cups of steam apply?

I personally know of cases where fill valves didn't work in houses with CI radiators on the second floor floor and caused water damage when they froze and split in the many thousands of dollars. Because the fill valve was stuck. And it became un-stuck. And slowly added water to the system.

I fly to work with an insurance adjuster. I will ask him.

I think you could argue pro and con. I personally think that if you left it on, and there was an adverse event, you would be covered under "most common practice". If you left it off, and the same happened, you might have a harder row to how. 

I've just never heard this argument brought forth. It defies my common sense.

DanHolohan

What Mark said.

Every boiler needs a low-water cutoff and I get nervous when violating a manufacturer's specific installation instructions. Just hate holding that bag by myself.



I've twice seen left-open feed valves create the conditions where boilers exploded. That was enough for me.



Let's agree to disagree on this one.

billtwocase

Dan

I'm wondering if that pertains to that model B&G that has no backflow/vacuum break? In that case leaving it off would make sense. I would never question your intelligence, just a thought. I would like to know myself. I have seen glycol charged closed systems that the auto feed was closed, but not water charged systems. Makes you wonder. I will also research the other brands to see what they recommend

Jim_47

LPCO ?

Mark?   what LPCO are you using or speaking of? I cannot find one at the local supply chains, or I'm not looking in the right place.

Jim

Mark Eatherton

Jim...

We use an adjustable well pressure switch from WW Grainger. It is the most accurate and dependable.



There are some smaller ones available from Spa and Pool heater companies, but were not as accurate nor as reliable.



THe Graingers switch is double pole, so if you wanted to, you could use the spare pole for an audible alarm system, or ties it into a burglar alarm (in a remote, occasionally occupied home).



ME

Jim_47

LPCO

As I thought, a good idea that industry has not caught up to yet.

A few years back I was looking for a LPCO and could not find one.  HELLO TO THE INDUSTRY, (Watts, Honeywell, etc) Please make us a LPCO, or for that manner, incorporate it in the LWCO.

tim smith

Re: fill valves and left on or off

Dan and any others. B&G put that in their fill valve install sheet appx I think 15 yrs ago. They did so when "I think" they were sued for a fill valve kept running after a failure and was flooding a place, if memory serves me right. We had to pull all our B&G fill valves off the shelf due to inspectors would not approve them here in Seattle at the time as auto feed devices were part of the code. The other mfrs did not put this in their docs at the time so we could use Taco, etc. I talked to B&G back then and they stood by their info. I still have that box of new fill valves, why I don't know?? Use to really like using them although.

DanHolohan

B&G has had that note for years.

It was there when I worked for their rep, and that goes back 22 years. Here's an example of what can go wrong. True story.



A house on a slab has baseboard heat and part of the loop dips under the front door. That copper pipe springs a leak in the slab and leaks for a good long time with nobody noticing. The fuel bill goes up and so does the water bill, but the homeowners take this in stride.



One day, the local water company decides to work on the main in the street. They go around the neighborhood and leave notes in the mailboxes, stating that the water will be off all day. The couple living in the house on the slab are at work.



It's winter and the circulator is running. There's no feed valve and no low-water cutoff on the boiler at this point (never was a LWCO). The boiler runs dry and the thermostat keeps calling, keeping the burner on. The boiler gets hotter and hotter. At the end of the day, the guys working on the water main are done and they open the valve. Cold water hits the hot boiler and the boiler explodes, taking down a good part of the house. No one was home, which was a blessing.



All boilers need low-water cutoffs, and what Mark said. 

DanHolohan

Funny story.

I mentioned the B&G warning once at a seminar and a contractor said that as long as B&G was saying that, he was going to use the competitor's valve because they weren't saying that.



He was a smoker. I asked him is he smoked only the cigarettes with the warning on the pack that read, "Smoking Can Hurt Your Baby!" He said that he did; he stayed away from the packs that warned against cancer and heart disease. That way, he had it covered. ;-)

Jean-David Beyer

Closing fill valve and LWCO

I am not a professional, but I have read a lot about this issue. I believe the right thing to do is leave the valve closed. But I would not dare to do this unless I had an LWCO (I do). Even so, I check the pressure almost every day. And if the pressure got low, I would open the feed valve until the pressure went back up. The only time the pressure went a little low was when the system was first started after it was installed. That was when the air eliminator was getting the last little bits of air out of the system. The drop was very little, about the thickness of the little red tell-tale in the pressure gauge.



I do not know if a LWCO is required around here on an 80,000 BTU/hr hot water boiler, but my contractor got that right: he did not even ask if I wanted one; he just installed it. My old boiler had no LWCO and no pressure relief valve. I guess if that one were to overheat, it would just push the boiler water back into the city water supply. No anti-backflow valve either. Was this kind of thing in codes back in 1950?  Or was compliance a matter of the honor system?



I wish I had another pressure gauge, with about a 4 inch dial on it, because the one that comes with the boiler is small and difficult to read accurately. Maybe I will have one installed at my next annual service.

hot_rod

If you have a rubber tube

radiant system you either have a working fill valve or you may return every heating season and adding a shot of fill water. For some reason, many of those system tend to need a boost of pressure every year.



I've tested some to 100 psi (tube only) for 24 hours and they held, but over the summer they drop enough to prevent boilers with low pressure switches from operating.



I suspect for every disaster story of a fill valve left on, you could find one for a fill valve left off.



Vacation homes are a classic case of freeze up due to low pressure lock outs that could have been prevented if the fill valve was allowed to do what it was designed and intended to do.



Your choice, plenty of arguments either way. It's a sad day when lawyers dictate hydronic installations. Which is the lesser of the two issues?



Some autofill valves come equipped with a knob to regulate flow. Once the system fills and purges you can adjust the flow to provide some make up without flowing 4 GPM in event of a break, maybe that is a compromise?



A large radiant job can take days to purge all the microbubbles, I'd advise leaving the fill on for a few days to a week or you may be returning every day to top it off, only to meet an un-happy no-heat customer.



Perspective varies depending if you are manufacturing selling or the rep. Or you are at the receiving end of the un-happy customer call that merely wants the reliable heat and DHW you promised and billed them for.



Maybe the tank fill systems with alarm contacts tied into a phone dialer would be another answer. Who's phone number should we use?



hr

Jean-David Beyer

I'd advise leaving the fill on for a few days to a week

John Siegenthaler suggested leaving it on for about two weeks. My system required closer to two months. I think this was due to the fact that the air eliminator was in the secondary loop of my system, where the water temperature will never exceed 135F, and is usually quite a bit less. The system was pretty well purged, and I think this was just the  little bits dissolving upstairs and coming back to the air eliminator near the boiler downstairs.