Steam Heat Question

bigbruce373

<span style="font-size:16pt"> I live in an old half double house that was originally built in 1896.  My heating system is  the old one pipe oil/steam heat with the old stand up cast iron radiators.  I had my oil boiler replaced this past March 2010 an I'm having problems regulating the radiators, trying to get the first floor units not to overheat before the second floor radiators get warm.  I also think that part of the problem may be with the old Honeywell round thermostat that is being used.  This thermostat is over 15 years old and has dust built up on the coils attached to the mercury filled tube.  I'm going to have the thermostat replaced which may help resolve the regulation problem.  </span><span style="font-size:16pt">My question for you is this :  Originally my kitchen, located in the rear of my home, had two cast iron radiators.  When we bought the home back in the mid 70's, one of the cast iron kitchen radiators was removed.  Now there is only one cast iron radiator in the kitchen and it is not enough to heat the entire kitchen.  In my celler, under the kitchen floor, along the back wall of the celler, there is still the original black iron steel pipe that supplied the steam to the radiator that was removed.  There is a 90 degree elbow with a plug in it on the end.  With this section of piping plugged at the end, this pipe remains cold when the heating unit runs.  What I'd like to do is to use this pipe to heat up the floor under the kitchen at the back of my home.  I can't replace the radiator in the kitchen because there is no room to do so.  If I could get steam into the old section of pipe that runs under the floor in my kitchen, it could help heat the floor in the kitchen under the sink and rear cabinets.  </span><span style="font-size:16pt">Can I simply remove the plug in this pipe and replace the plug with some sort of steam release valve which would permit steam to once again pass through this now cold pipe which in turn would cause the pipe to get hot and help heat the kitchen floor?  Also, do you know any type of flat radiator that I could suspend from the rafters under my kitchen and connect it to the original steam pipe that is already there?  Please reply at your earliest convenience.</span><span style="font-size:16pt">Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.</span><span style="font-size:16pt">Sincerely,</span><span style="font-size:16pt">bigbruce373</span>

crash2009

You could

put a vent on that stub in the kitchen, but it wouldn't give you much heat.  Your time and money would likely be better directed at making the existing radiator heat as much as it possibly can.  How hot does it get now?  Assuming its say 5 sections, do all 5 sections get too hot to touch?  Can you show us a picture of the kitchen radiator?  Stand back far enough, and crouch down low to get it all in. 



Regarding the rest of the house,,,,Do you have any big vents on the main pipes, down in the celler?  Lets have a look at that too.  While you are down there can you take a couple shots of the boiler.  We mostly just need to see how the pipes come out of it and how they connect to the ceiling pipes.

Mike Kusiak_2

Honeywell mercury thermostat

I would not rush to replace your existing thermostat. Properly adjusted, it is one of the best for controlling a steam system. There is very little that can go wrong with it. Dust should not drastically affect it, but you can certainly clean the dust off with a soft brush.



These thermostats have a heat anticipator adjustment which allow you to set the cycle length to match the characteristics of your particular system.



If you recently replaced the boiler and did not readjust the anticipator setting to match the new one, this could be the cause of your problems.

Rod

Heating for the Kitchen

Hi-  On the hot downstairs /cold upstairs radiator situation -you might try changing the radiator vents  on the downstairs radiators to a slower vent or better yet an adjustable vent like a Hoffman 1A or Ventrite and turn them to a lower setting. This would slow down the steam entering the downstairs radiator and allow the upstairs ones to catch up. You might also want to make sure you have ample main venting as this might help the upstairs radiators.  TRVs might be another option though you can't use a TRV in the room where you have your thermostat. Those mercury thermostats are pretty "bullet proof" so it may just need an adjustment. I've attached a instruction sheet on setting up the round 87 type thermostat.



Capped steam pipe under the kitchen.- I don't think trying to turn this into a one tube radiator would do you much good. It would be like basically cutting one tube out of a radiator section and expecting it to then heat the room.



A remodeled kitchen (with a removed radiator (s) that is now too cold is a common problem. You have to think the original heating men carefully decided they needed a certain amount of heat to keep  the kitchen warm and by removing one of the radiators you are going to come up short.



There are a couple of solutions possible.

Steam- You may be able to work out something using the existing steam pipe but with a baseboard /fin radiator. This would be the best option I think.

Hot Water- It would be possible to run HW leg off your steam boiler and use a  HW "Toe Kick" radiator. To work well these have an electric fan to circulate the heat. I gusee it depends if you can tolerate constant fan noise.  In the floor radiant might be an option though this has to be very carefully done and you'd have to tear up the whole kitchen flooring.

Electric- They make electric "Toe Kick" heaters. Whether this would be practical depends on your local electric rates. They also have a fan.

Here's some info that maybe of help to you.

- Rod



Baseboard /Toe Kick Radiators -Hydronic & Steam

Myson

http://www.mysoninc.com/

Beacon /Morris

http://www.beacon-morris.com/

Governale

http://www.governaleindustries.com/

Steamhead

Try to find

a radiator that will fit the available space. They come in all shapes and sizes.



Toe-kick heaters are a poor substitute.

bigbruce373

Steam Heat Question

Hi Mike and thanks for your reply.  How do I 'adjust' the 'heat anticipator'  thermostat setting to match the characteristics of my new heating system?  I know that the thermostat has an adjustment that regulates how long the boiler runs.  The thermostat has a sliding arrow that adjusts how long the heating system runs (shorter or longer).  The problem I'm having is that if I set this 'running time' to have the system run longer, the water level in the boiler drops too far which trips the automatic water fill valve.  In turn, once the boiler does stop running, the autofill system puts too much water into the boiler and then I have to drain buckets of water out of the system so that the 'water level' recommended by the boiler manufacturer is set correctly.  So far nothing I've done seems to correct this problem.  It's very frustrating since the entire heating system works just fine for three or four cycles but then after the system runs again, the water level problem happens and I end up having to drain buckets of water out of the system.  Any help you can offer will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

Bruce

bigbruce373

Steam heat question

Hi and thanks for your reply.  The existing kitchen radiator is a 5 section cast iron radiator and all 5 sections get hot, very hot.  There is really no problem with this specific radiator.  The problem is that my house is very, very old and the back wall of my kitchen is the back wall of my house.  Since the house is extremely old, the walls are not insulated.  I've had contractors here and they've done everything they can to help insulate this wall but still, when the outdoor temps reach freezing and below and any type of wind over 5mph cause the back wall of my home to feel like a walk in freezer.  My twin stainless sink gets so cold you really cannot touch it.  When you open the doors on the kitchen back wall cabinets, it honestly feels like you're opening a refrigerator.  I thought that if I can get the old piping in the celler that runs along the back wall to get some heat in it, that would help to warm the floor and back wall somewhat.  I don't expect this will heat up the back wall very much but anything will be better than nothing. 

There are NO valves anywhere on the piping system in the celler.  The pipes that carry the steam heat to the radiators are all just straight through pipes that have no adjustment valves anywhere in the entire system.  The only valves are the ones that go into the radiators themselves.  I've adjusted these as best as I can to help resolve the problem.   

BobC

Overfilling the boiler

Some water feeders have an adjustment that lets you delay the injection of water, depending on how slow the water is returning it might be enough to alleviate this problem. What make and model water feeder do you have and do you see any settings on it?



The fact it's feeding water and then the boiler ends up being overfilled after the steaming cycle ends sounds like your return pipe is mostly blocked. The steam goes out and gets condensed back to water but it's having trouble getting back to the boiler - the water feeder is trying to make up for the dropping level by feeding water. After all is said and done that water eventually finds it's way back to the boiler and overfills it.



It's time to think about snaking out, or replacing, the return lines.

Mike Kusiak_2

Thermostat adjustment

The sliding arrow that you referred to is the anticipator adjustment, and it does determine how long the boiler runs during a call for heat. The fact that adjusting it affects the run time suggests that the thermostat is operating properly. Rather it seems that you might have clogged returns as BobC mentions below, which is slowing down the return of condensed water back to the boiler. When the water does not return fast enough during a long cycle, the boiler water level drops to the point the autofeeder kicks in. Then when the condensed water finally returns, the boiler becomes overfilled as you describe.

bigbruce373

Overfilling The Boiler

Hi Bob C and thanks for your reply.  I'll have to check the return lines within the next week or so.  It sure sounds like this is the most logical reason that the 'overfilling' is happening.  I think that the water feeder is a McDonnel/Miller model but there are no types of 'settings' that I can see.  I'll get back to you within the next week after I have a chance to inspect the return piping system to see if there is any type of blockage.  Thanks again for your reply.  It is greatly apreciated.

Bruce

crash2009

Have you ever thought about

 using that blow-in insulation?  They drill 2 holes between each wall stud and fill the empty wall cavity.  Is the floor joist in the basement insulated?  Can you put a peice of 1" foil backed insulation behind the radiator?  Is the radiator inside an enclosure?  Is there a shelf or other obstruction over the radiator?  Is the plumbing stack insulated up in the attic?  I'm all out of guesses.  Got a picture?