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Vitodens 200 new vs. old

ChrisL
ChrisL Member Posts: 121
I am considering installing a Vitodens 200 WB2A 8-32.  Can anyone tell me the difference between it, and the newer B version, other than the Lamda Pro?

Thanks,

Chris

Comments

  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    the difference

    the Vitodens WB2B includes the lambda gas valve, which modulates and recognizes the fuel...no conversion kit needed between LP and Nat gas. the computer has been upgraded and the wiring harness slightly changed. It has no internal pump!! the pump was deleted for cost benefit. the venting went from 5" to 4" and longer lengths are possible using either the co-pipe or Poly.  the boiler has been simplified in a certain way, with upgrades.the burner is made by Viessmann but is no longer the hemispherical Matrix burner.  the low loss header and sensor is required if system design exceeds 6-7 gpm. does not require a mixing valve/actuator unless 2 temps are required. DHWT can be piped either before (preferred) or after the LLH.
  • ChrisL
    ChrisL Member Posts: 121
    re:

    Thanks Paul,  I looked over all the documentation, and searched the Wall, but was unable to get the finer details.



    Chris
  • SpeyFitter
    SpeyFitter Member Posts: 422
    edited December 2010
    Honest question

    Is this Lambda Pro technology a legitimate benefit here in North America, or another thing to pay for and that could go wrong (not that it incorporates that much more in all honesty)? The only reason I ask is I know in other parts of the world they tend to have significant issues with changing fuel source suppliers/locations where this technology could be a big benefit, but I somehow suspect that in SUE HAPPY North America, that if the utility/gas suppliers suddenly started changing their gas quality to the extent that it caused under or overfiring appilances to the point that it caused a dangerous situation, they could wind up in big trouble. Also, it's been a while since I last checked, but I believe where I live in North America, which is British Columbia, the Calorific Value of our natural gas hasn't too much in a long time, but perhaps some have more history than myself.

    When I took the Viessmann training for their Vitodens recently, they show you this picture of a ship with these 3 or 4 big circular containers that are used to store liquid natural gas on ships to bring accross big seas.

    I think having a higher minimum firing rate (31,000) on the new Vitodens 200's smaller boilers compared to the last Vitodens (25,000) was a step back in my opinion. Everytime you bring this up someone at Viessmann tells you that the lower flame mixtures are tricky, yet if you go to Viessmann.COM they have boilers that modulate down to 3.8 KW if I'm not mistaken (about 13,000 BTUH). I think it's more along the lines to say that Viessmann does not value the North American market enough yet, or perhaps Viessmann North America does not have enough resources to test the boilers they choose to bring into this continent as quickly as demand calls for.

    I understand Viessmann decided to ixne the internal variable speed pump to reduce costs to make their boilers appear more competitive in this regard (if someone actually took the time to see the value in the built in pump in their cost comparison, they might say the last WB2A Vitodens 200 was a good value but some people don't see this value unfortunately), however it would be nice if they still have the option to make their new WB2B boilers work with a variable speed pump, or at least had an accessory pump that is plug & play in this regard.
    Class 'A' Gas Fitter - Certified Hydronic Systems Designer - Journeyman Plumber
  • SpeyFitter
    SpeyFitter Member Posts: 422
    Not one reply?

    Wow- not one person bit on my questions/points about Viessmann, yet I know there are many Viessmann admirers on this discussion board. What gives? Keep in mind my points are not meant to attack Viessmann. I admire Viessmann's committment to quality, not to say other manufacturers don't build quality, but I notice Viessmann has a reputation for quality. And as a guy who believes in quality I pay attention when Viessmann talks (or comes out with something - you get the point). But I am skeptical because as a person who is influencing customers, I need to have the answers for the tough questions, because many customers come on this very board. I also need to have the answers for myself so I know I'm installing the right product. Because to me the right product is the one that is durable and reliable. That is the essence of a truly green product. If this thing is going to break down and cost the homeowner money, it ain't green, plain and simple as they will not realize a payback, nor will the environment when I'm pushing a V8 gas van to their house to deliver service & parts to fix the thing.
    Class 'A' Gas Fitter - Certified Hydronic Systems Designer - Journeyman Plumber
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    New vs. Old (Expensive vs Cheap)

    Scott,

    You must know that in the USA, cheap is the better value and expensive is the rip off. You just don't understand.

    A V-8 van gets better fuel milage than a V-6. Diesel fuel costs now make gas the better fuel per gallon. It costs BTU's to cart my tools around.
  • Gordan
    Gordan Member Posts: 891
    I pretty much agree with you 100%

    I had the same qualms even before the WB2B became available, when the features were still being announced, and especially in light of what's available across the pond, from the same manufacturer, and for considerably less. One just feels... ripped off. The 300, in particular, combines what was good about the WB2A with what's good about WB2B (eh, that's pretty much just Lambda Pro, no?) and then some.



    Another thing that strikes me as somewhat callous was the way the boiler was never refitted for 120/60Hz, so they gave you an external adapter that made the boiler use more electricity than it should have. The ECM Kbus pump, which should have been very efficient, wasn't, as a result of that.
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    edited December 2010
    The right product...

    is the one you're most comfortable with.  I'm not sure durability and reliability are what "Green" is about.  These machines have the highest combustion efficiency and lowest emmissions of any appliance but there is a caveat. They are 30-40% electronic and electronic parts can and will glitch. That somewhat reduces reliability, but all wall-hung modulating boilers can have the same issues. It's my opinion that these machines are designed for a 15-20 year life cycle, not a 50 year life cycle like cast iron boilers.



     Take the class with Viessmann if you really want to get deep into what makes them work.  You'll get your answers and then some. If you've taken the class, direct the questions to your local rep. He should be able to suport the product.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Stepping Up to the Plate

    First off. Paul Pollets, Lee Zoldan says hello and wished you and your family a happy and wonderfull holiday.



    Sorry Scott been away so first time I saw this post. Let's start with Lamda Pro. Not a new technology for Viessmann has been in play since 2005 over the pond. The technology is proven.Simply uses the innozation current from the flame sensor to provide feedback to the gas valve and inducer motor separate from each other.  In North America this has a substantial advatage. As the gas companies being to add fillers the gas lines with LP and other fillers during the peak heating season to keep pressures up, the gas valves adpats/adjusts to keep the burn clean and at peak efficiency. There are no added sensors or high cost associated to doing this.



    The other advantage in the combustion process is that air is independent. With the gas valve and air independent on each other this means the boiler can conducts its own combustion test on every fire. It's not prisoner to the way the installer set up the boiler in July, August or November  during his combustion test. It has the capability to react to all the changes in form of fuel and air in the combustion process on every fire. It's added ability to fire down to 2" wc on LP stops alot of nusicance lockout calls due to sticky regulators.



    Some of the other advantages are longer and in some cases smaller venting then the previous version. Just my 2 cents. Happy New Year.



     
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    Lee Zoldan

    Lee was a dear friend and was the first plumber I worked for in Middletown. I always make a point to drop in at his shop when I make a rare appearance to Middletown. Relay my regards!!
  • SpeyFitter
    SpeyFitter Member Posts: 422
    Yeah - not new technology

    Chris,

    Just for your information, Viessmann was NOT the first Boiler manufacturer of residential mod-cons to develop their own system that analyzes flame quality (or emissions/flue gas products) and modulates the gas valve & air independantly to achieve a desired result (i.e. cleaner emissions or better burn). IBC's original modulating condensing boilers back in the late 90's/early 2000's had a vehicle style emissions system with an O2 sensor, Mass Air Flow Sensor, and Modulating Gas Valve that throttle gas flow & air flow independantly to satisfy the Oxygen Sensor. They eventually decided to go to simpler, more reliable zero governor set up, which has been around for a very long time.
    Class 'A' Gas Fitter - Certified Hydronic Systems Designer - Journeyman Plumber
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Paul

    I will pass your regards on. He speaks very highly of you.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    I Can Only Speak From Experience

    In the case of Viessmann since it's release here is the US as of July 09 I have had nothing but great results and feedback on the new WB2B, Have experienced zero problems and the same goes for the WB1B. Have sold a few hundred boilers since their release with not one issue concerning the arrow. Have had a few Indian problems but they were very minor. All in all it's a great little boiler.



    The original posters question was as to which version he should invest in and hands down its the WB2B over the older WB2A.  My question to the poster is what size boiler is he looking at and what is the application? If this is just a baseboard replacement job where he needs less than 100,000 btu's the Vitodens 100 WB1B is really the boiler for the application.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
This discussion has been closed.