Ouch

Manny_PGH

I recently purchased a house with a one pipe steam heat system. I am fixing it up and have yet to move in.



I have been unable to get an expert to look at my system. I had one company out that made some changes to pressure settings etc, but was too busy to get in the the thick of it and left me the following problem to solve:

Patch the main pipe with JB Weld as it was cracked an leaking steam.

Replace the thermostat that had the system running for 45 seconds before stopping and then kicking on again about 60 seconds later.

Replace several air vents that were not closing and allowed steam to escape the system (some radiators were not heating, but they also seem ok now).



My question is this, in my current house (forced air, 1800 sqft, temp set at 68 degrees) the gas bill this month was 1/12 th the new house (gas/steam, 2800 sqft, temp set at 62 degrees).



Is it likely that the huge gas bill was driven by the combination of leaks and a bad thermostat or are there other obvious things I need to look in to. I am concerned that there may be other leaks in the system that are not obvious to me or other significant issues that need to be addressed.



I just got the Steamy Package in the mail. I am in the process of trying to educate myself. I would like not to go broke during that process :)

BobC

Questions

Manny,



What kind of boiler do you have, there should be a name plate on it somewhere. the pressure should be set low - no more than 2PSI and hopefully lower. On the front of the boiler there should be a small grey box that controls the system pressure. the font tab should bet set at 0.5PSI and the white dial inside should be set to 1. This would let the boiler run with a maximum of 1,5PSI and then let it it cut back in at 0.5PSI - till the thermostat is satisfied.



What kind of thermostat do you have. Some of the modern set back types have to be set up correctly to work with steam. If you don't have the thermostat manual you can probably download one from the web.



I assume this is a single pipe system. In the basement your steam main should have an air vent on it, is it working?



Post some pictures so we can see what your dealing with. We need to see the boiler from different angles and the piping that is near the boiler. Also a picture of a representative radiator sowing the input valve and the air vent.



Bob

Rod

Steam Books

Hi Manny- Read "We Got Steam Heat! " first as it is a good introduction to steam heating especially with the terminology. I started with "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" and afterward realized that reading "We Got...." first would have been a better way to go.

It's bit overwhelming at first but it quickly all falls into place. Believe me the knowledge you get from those books will save you a LOT of money!

- Rod

Charlie from wmass

Welcome to steam and the wall Manny

I am wondering how often the steam boiler requires water to be added? also the leak that was "fixed" with JB Weld how long did it leak for. And of course I need to ask what pressure they adjusted the system to? I had a call just last week another person showed up and fixed it by cranking up the pressure when the issue was a clogged pigtail.

Manny_PGH

Limited Responses and Photos

Folks - thanks for taking time to respond to me post - I really appreciate it.



The furnace guy said that he lowered the pressure setting to 1.5 (it was at 6). He also said the furnace was not installed properly and that is why the pipe snapped.



There are 2 holes at the top of the main vent - as the system fired up I did not feel any air leave those 2 holes (I was pressing my fingers against them to try to feel and hear the air escape) - I stopped that observation once the vent got so hot that it started to burn my hand



I am going to attach several photos - I will be very impressed if they all make it..

Manny_PGH

Photo Comments

The second photo has a red circle where I have patched the pipe with JB Weld.



The ninth picture should show the main vent - that's what I was checking for air when the system was firing away.



The thermostat I installed is a Honeywell TH5110D1022. I set it to the gravity/steam option. I believe I found that  as a recommendation on an earlier wall post. The system is not stopping and starting every minute or so since I installed the new thermostat.



I also added some shots of the base - it looks like a botch job to my untrained eyes. Since I am going to have the main supply pipe fixed, should I also have the boiler set on level/solid ground at that time?

BobC

Header is not right

If the system had been running for more than 7-8 minutes before you checked the air vent it may have already closed. Do you have any idea how long it takes till that mainn vent gets hot from the beginning of a heating cycle? That type of air valve (Hoffman 75) usually clinks when it closes and you can usually hear it drop out when the pressure and temperature drops at the end of a cycle. When the system has cooled down try removing that vent and shake it up and down, you should hear something moving around. Then, while holding it somwhat verticle try blowing into the threaded end, you should be able to blow air through it pretty easily.



Make sure all the radiator vents are working and try to figure out if they are all getting steam at about the same time. Also log the gas use on a daily basis so you can see what the usage is, that should tellm you if fixing that bad pipe was a big culprit with that gas bill.



The fact your guy knew enough to lower the pressure to 1.5PSI indicates he has some idea of what he is doing, keep his number handy.



The boilers header is not configured correctly and that may lead to wet steam. Between the high pressure and wet steam the system was probably not running well at all. that pipe that faillooks like copper and what you experienced is why copper is not the preferred material for steam work. If its sandwiched between steel piping it becomes the weak link.



That boiler doesn't look that old, the header should be fixed so it matches the installation diagram, making sure the new header is at least 28" above the water line of the boiler. They may have to move the boiler to do that so everything mates up; that would be the time to put it on a pad or at least some solid cement blocks. there is always the danger of something bad happening when you start taking things like that apart so you will need some good pipe fitting experience to do it without cracking something.



Bob

Manny_PGH

Main Vent

Bob:



When I got to reattach the main vent should I use Teflon on the threads or something else?



 

BobC

Teflon/

Teflon tape will work fine on the vent as would pipe dope.



Bob

jreed

Botched base?

Just a thought - maybe they got a good deal on a boiler with damaged "feet", and then tried to level it out by sticking bricks, etc underneath it at strategic places.



I'm not an expert by any means, but I'd say that as long as it is stable (meaning, not moving now, and not able to move in the future) you're probably OK. Maybe you could construct something a bit more permanent with concrete, instead of loose rocks and bricks, if you are not going to repair/replace the bent base components.

Manny_PGH

Main Vent

I removed the main vent and something did rattle inside of it. Holding it vertically I can blow air through it and holding it inverted I cannot - so seems like it is in working order.



When the system fired up it took several minutes for heat to reach the main vent. I did not notice (feel or hear) any air leaving the vent. The 3" piped that it branches off got too hot to touch a couple of minutes before the main vent did. During that 2 minute window I could feel the heat creep up the half inch pipe and eventually all the way up to the top of the main vent.



I check the radiators and it was a mixed bag of hot and cold. So there is some work to do there.



The boiler was installed in February, but I gave up on the company that installed it after a month of trying to get them out to turn on the system and tell me what I need to do to maintain it. Since they had it misconfigured that is likely a good thing. The guy that adjusted the pressure down cannot get out until the New Year to do any work on the system. I am just concerned that he was willing to let the system run with a cracked pipe for that length of time, and also the fact that he left the water supply to the boiler closed.



The following question may put me in knucklehead status but here goes. As a next step is it worth closing all the radiator vents and then removing the main vent to ensure that steam makes it all the way there when the system fires up?

 

BobC

rad venting too high?

Manny,



The tests you did on that main vent indicate it is probably ok but one never knows. The steam will follow the path of least resistance, if the radiator venting is huge it will tend to go there until all those vents snap shut, then it will go for the main vent.



How much venting do you have on your radiators, what kind of vent is on them? I noticed one of your pictures shows a heat timer vent and they can have very high venting rates. That radiator vent has 30% more venting capacity than your Hoffman 75 main vent if the Heat Timer is set to maximum.



Large radiator vents like those may be doing a lot of the system venting and that might not be the best thing with a boiler configured like yours. You might want to start turning down the venting on the radiators that heat up ok (down to 1/4 (maybe less)  and see if the system performs differently. Usually the smallest radiators want a small amount of venting while large radiators need more, nothing should need a heat timer set to full on.



I'm not sure your 5110 thermostat has the required CPH setting of 1 that a steam system needs. Go over the instructions in the enclosed manual to see if you have the function as listed on page 6 at the bottom of the page.



The guy who turned down the pressure and told you how to temporarily fix the split pipe was probably buried with service calls. He is going to do for his established customers before doing in depth work for a new guy when the calls get heavy.



Bob

Manny_PGH

Setting Validation

I have a lot of heat timer vents. I did not have any set to fully open, but I did make sure all or now set to 1/8 to 1/4 open. I will use this as a starting point.



I checked the thermostat settings and they appear to be ok:

Item 1 [System Type] is set to 2 [Heat Only 2 wire systems]

Item 5 [Stage 1 heat cycle rate (CPH cycles/hour)]is set to 1 [for Steam or gravity systems]



As an aside, I tried closing all the radiator air vents and removing the  main vent - it took about 5 mins for steam to come billowing out.



As for the technician - not sure he does not think I am the most important thing in the world

Manny_PGH

Correction

As for the technician - not sure why he does not think I am the most

important thing in the world

haaljo

1/12 the cost?

So, is your scorched air place 1/12 the size? Are we talking $100 vs $1,200? Based on same degree days, I would not be surprised that either your hot air pad has a faulty gas meter that is reading too low or more likely your steam abode has a faulty gas meter that is reading too high - cynic that I am.

Once you read through Dan's package of books you will know how to clock the meters and review billings including things like the rate class and meter multiplier .

Manny_PGH

50% bigger

my current house - gas/forced air, 1800 sqft, temp

set at 68 degrees - gas bill $80

new house

- gas/steam, 2800 sqft, temp set at 62 degrees - gas bill $940

haaljo

Wow!

Almost $1K and that's for natural gas at low temperature setpoint.

Good luck. You'll get a lot of great advice on this board. Don't discount the faulty meter if logical answers do not provide results. :-)

BobC

Are they really off?

Did you turn the air vents off by turning them all the way down or did you turn them upside down?



Turning the Heat Timers down to 1/4 sets the venting at 0.158 CFM which is still a fast vent rate and a little under 20% of the maximum; I don't know if you can move the lever any lower. If you have small radiators in the mix you might want to use Hoffman 1A's on them, they vent from 0.026 up to 0.226CFM.



It's beginning to look like a rebalancing of the system will get everything working while addressing any piping issues and insulating the pipes should begin to make things more economical.



Have you started to log your gas usage to see if your efforts to date have cut the use?



Bob

Manny_PGH

Using the slider

I turned the radiator vents to closed (and now to 1/4 open) by using the little slider on the side. I will look to pick up some slower vents soon - I have the "Balancing Steam Systems" book - so I need to try and wrap my head around that.



I have just started to track gas usage - so after a few days I will post back what I am seeing for the daily average.



Most of the main supply in the basement is already insulated - asbestos in places and fiber glass in others. None of the joints are insulated - so I was planning on insulating those when I covered any exposed pipe. The risers are in the walls and not accessible.



I have seen some insulation with an r-value of 10 - should I go with that?

neilc

insulation and weatherization

Boiler and furnace aside,

You also have to look at each house,

 and looking at the pictures,

I will hazard a guess that the steamer is in an old uninsulated home maybe ?

And the furnace is in a newer tighter house.

Heat loss baby,,,

World Plumber

Books and charts

 Get and read the steam books also get the venting charts. Most system need more main venting and can that ever cut your gas consumption. Your burning gas all the while your trying to vent air. The quicker you get the air out the sooner you get heat.

    I more than halved my fuel consumption almost a 1/3. The customers who I added vents for love me. Not only less full consumption but a more comfortable house. But then I have those who are spending as much per month for as as I do a year with a much bigger house think spending a $100.00 for vents and a few bucks for labor think it's too much to pay to save $400.00 a month in Gas. Go figure. When the boiler is operating for an hour before the radiators start to warm where do they think the energy is going?



    Dead Men Don't Lie and The Steamy Deal; plus some others, is the best investment I ever made.

Manny_PGH

Working Through The Books

Thanks for the advice. I have the steamy deal and am working my way through it. Sorry to hear you have to deal with a lot of cheap skates.

Manny_PGH

The Older The Better?

The furnace house is a 1915 stick house with brick exterior. I put a new furnace and a lot of new windows in when I first moved in about 12 years ago. I also had insulation blow in the wall cavity.



The boiler house was built in 1930. It is junior beam construction (steel beams and concrete on 2 floors) with a stick and stone 3rd floor (half a floor). The walls are solid - stone/brick/plaster and are 8" thick - the risers are in the exterior walls and are likely not insulated. The basement is poured concrete. The house has a ton of windows. These are double hung aluminum windows from the 70's. Most are in good shape and a couple need some maintenance.



Both attics are insulated to the same amount - decent, but could be better.



I agree with the point you raise though, the house needs to be tightened up some.

Manny_PGH

Impact of changes

I have gathered 6 daily readings of the gas meter at the same time each day. Averaging those numbers and applying the cryptic math of the gas company, the next gas bill will likely come in around $670. So the thermostat and new radiator air vents have had a significant and positive impact.



Should I consider a Gorton 2 to replace the Hoffman 75 on the main? The Hoffman is attached to a 1/2" pipe (shown in 9th picture above). The Gorton 2 venting capacity if closer to that of the open pipe than the Hoffman. Maybe I am oversimplifying things here.



Also will the correction of the header pipe yield any efficiencies?

Rod

Adding to Main Vents

Hi Manny- Main vents- Unlike radiator vents it's hard to go wrong with more venting on the mains. The Hoffman 75 is about 1/2 the venting capacity of the Gorton #2. I would use both vents together mounted on an "antler"

    Correction of the header piping.- Will that increase efficiency? Hard to measure, Theoretically it should because a good drop header configuration  results in dryer steam.  Having dry steam is important because then more steam (heat) ends up reaching the radiators. When there is "wet steam" that means that water droplets are being carried along with the steam. These water droplets cool the steam and encourage it to collapse ( condense to water) so that the condensed steam gives up its latent heat in the mains rather than where you want it, in the radiators. This results in a longer burner time to heat the room and satisfy the thermostat setting. I would definitely make the piping change if it was my system though I think I'd probably wait until it was warmer to do it.

I might also mention that on the HeatTimer varivents, they don't shut off at the minimum setting. The minimum setting is about the same as a middle setting of a Hoffman 1A

- Rod