Victorian needs all new heating system

NewG

Hi all,

I've got some general questions that would help me in the initial design phase of rehabbing a big old Victorian house (built 1895, 6000 sq ft., 3 floors, 3 apartments). Previous owner let the place go through early Winter without heat or winterizing the boiler / radiator system. Most of the old cast iron radiators and at least some steel fittings in the supply / return lines had already popped. But the boiler is relatively new and I think I got to it before it froze.

So, I've got to make some decisions as to whether I should go with new baseboard heating, or put in 3 new furnaces (one for each floor / apartment) with a very basic duct layout. Choosing between the two will depend on how easily I can run O2 pex lines to feed new baseboard units.

What is the basic layout for supply lines in multi story houses ? Does each floor get a horizontal loop with radiators tapping off that ? Or are the radiators stacked on top of each other for each floor, creating a vertical loop ? If it's vertical, do the lines normally get installed in the exterior wall ? Assuming it's vertical, how would you plan to get as much hot water to the top floor radiator as the bottom floor ?

Thanks for any help in this early phase of the design.

meplumber

Running Pex is going to be easier than ductwork.

Take a look at putting in (3) boilers.  Either Gas Modulating/Condensing boilers or oil if you are already setup for it.  Run a good quality pex to the remaining radiators that are good and put panel radiators up in the areas where the old rad is cracked. 



All the radiators, old and new could be fitted with Thermostatic Radiator Valves.



This system would allow you to separate the fuel cost to each apartment.  It would be more efficient and more comfortable.



I know that you are reluctant to, but find a good professional to help you.  If you find a good one, he will most likely let you run the PEX.  That can save you a bundle.  Then he can come back and set the boilers and radiators.



Good Luck.

NewG

What goes around comes around

Thanks for the quick advice,

And yes, the temptation is to do everything myself, but I think having a heating contractor give onsite advice and splitting the duties with him would be the most efficient in this case. I just want to know more about the overall layout before calling someone in.

If it does turn out that keeping the existing boiler is the way to go, how would the piping layout go ? Is it basically horizontal runs in the basement attached to vertical stacks of radiators ? Or do I have to box out some kind of perimeter loop on each floor ?

icesailor

Victorian Re-Pipe:

Every house and install is different and different installers see each job differently.

You have asked for a way to do all in one but want to separate all. It all comes down to cost. If you want to do all the work yourself, you don't need a professional, you know what you want to do. A professional would say to install three boilers and get rid of the radiators. Do a clean install. But, you want to save radiators. I appreciate that but for that, it will take a tremendous amount of time and figuring out. The "F" around factor becomes expensive for the professional. Its not as easy as it looks.

Charlie from wmass

New G

For me I prefer to go over a system with a customer and find out what their needs are. Once that is established I give a quote for the repair. I have seldom seen a job be split with a competent contractor and home own stick to budget. If the contractor has to over see you and do his own work he now has double duty and has to charge accordingly. radiators can be saved and moved around. Separate boilers for each unit with forced hot water is a good way to control and separate utility costs but does lead to higher costs to keep it all running.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

An alternative

There is no need to put in three separate boilers to split utilizes.   Using BTU meters on each zone can provide you with seperate billing and allow a simplier to maintain single heating plant.  I would first start pressure testing the existing system (with air) to see how bad things are,  You may simply need a few radiators and some piping repairs and be ready to go.

NewG

Alternatives and $

Thanks for the tip on pressure testing BoilerPro.

So far I've counted 7 radiators that popped. That's probably half the house. And there could be more. Taking them off, capping the stub outs and applying a manometer to some of the risers is fairly easy. So I guess I'll try that first (after capping the broken fitting with a Fernco or something air tight). So far, only two fittings on one supply / return set of lines have been spotted in plain sight. Makes me wonder if I'm lucky enough to have spotted the only two in the entire building so easily. My guess is that a clean install with modern baseboard units will have to be done and cost would be the main criteria.

One alternative that might fit the architecture and lower the budget is to use one vent free fireplace per apartment to heat up the open spaces (living room, dining, kitchen areas) and just limit the baseboards to the smaller rooms (essentially the rear half of the house). The millivolt type log sets can be attached to setback wall thermostats. I tried that in a couple of efficiency type apartments and it's been working great for the past year.

Conserving energy is good for everyone, but metering the tenants isn't a high priority bc I'll be paying for all the insulation, weatherstripping, storm windows that's going to be added to the building. So I should be the one to pay everyone's heating bills and save $ if I've done my job well.

Steamhead

Vent free fireplaces are evil

if the oxygen-depletion sensor fails, or the unit starts producing carbon monoxide, people can die. And guess who would be liable?



Do yourself a favor and rip that junk out.

Rod

Vent free fireplaces are VERY EVIL!

I agree with Steamhead. Vent Free fireplaces are very evil and a lot of money must have changed hands to get something as stupid as this passed.  If a burner gets a bit out of adjustment and the 35 cent sensor (Made in China) goes bad, you have dead occupants in the room. At this point if you aren't one of the occupants and you own the room, you would probably better off being dead yourself as you're probably going to be doing some hard jail time and be bankrupt, let alone have those deaths on your conscience. Here's a link to an article on vent free fireplaces that may further help you.

http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/unvented_vs_vented_gas_appliances

Unless you are a fan of Russian Roulette I'd keep well clear of unvented fireplaces.

- Rod