New Boiler causing violent hammering

k00k

About a week and a half ago, we had our old perfectly working but extremely inefficient B&W removed and replaced with a new Weil-McLain SGO-4 (w/ tankless hot-water). This is oil fired steam - 1 pipe steam radiators. All seemed well for the first week, although I did have a bunch of noisy and sometimes spitting radiators which I chalked up to a new hotter and moister steam and figured I'd buy some new adjustable vents for the radiators, check my radiator leveling, and move on. Not so fast.



About 4 days after the install, the low water cutoff tripped and I needed to add some water to the boiler. I chalked this up to the old spitting vents losing more water than they should. The boiler seemed ok for the next 4-5 days, and then it happened...



Extremely violent hammering in the steam pipes. Violent enough that it shakes the house, scares the dog, and is driving me and the missus crazy. Again, the system was fine with NO hammering for the first week after the installation.



Yesterday, I decided to go buy the new vents, and also replace the main-line vent as all of these were ancient and in varying levels of quality, and hoped this would help the situation in general. I went to our local pro heating supply house, got adjustable vari-vents for all of the 6 radiators in my house, and a vari-vent (non adjustable) for the main-line. I installed all of them, checked my radiators' leveling (cracking the level bubble at least) but this didn't really help the spitting, in some cases it's worse and the radiators are just as or even noisier than before.



I called the contractor and one of the on-call guys (saturday) came out and added a bottle of Squick in the hopes that it would take care of any surface tension from crap in the boiler, and he also said it might help the steam to be less moist. He said it could take a week to fully work and to call them after that if we're still having problems. I'm not sure if they skimmed or added squick during the install. He also said that any crap in the steam pipes may be getting loosened and this could be having an effect too. He also set the psi to 2.



So, here I am, asking for advice, thoughts, and anything else you feel like :)



I checked the measurements of the header and return in regards to the water line as specified in the Weil McLain manual, and all are within specs.



I've uploaded a bunch of photos of my system (there are some pics of the old b&w system there too), in hopes that if there's anything that looks horrendous, you'll let me know.



Pics: <a href="http://bit.ly/h93Y06">http://bit.ly/h93Y06</a>

Sil

I am no pro....

..but there are plenty here who will give you excellent advice.



But I will tell you... putting the pressure upto 2psi and using copper pipe are two signs that your installer does not have experience installing steam.



One thing I see that could be part of the issue (but let the pros agree before taking my advice to the bank) is there is a reducing coupling coming right out of the boiler. I assume that would cause a wet steam... and wet steam can equal a water hammer problem.



K00K, let the pros opine.. they will give you priceless advice.



Sil

Dave in QCA

Piping Sizes are Too Small

Your contractor did a good job in following the schematic of the piping layout.  But, for some reason, he decided he didn't need to follow the Installation Manual instructions for minimum piping sizes.  Here is a link to the Installation Manual.  http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/boilers/oil-boilers/sgo/sgo-boiler-manual.pdf.pdf

Page 14, Table for One Pipe Counterflow, calls for one riser from the boiler with 2 1/2" pipe, header 2 1/2" , equalizer 1 1/2".

It looks like your riser and header are either 1 1/2" or 2" and your equalizer is 1" or 1 1/4".  It's hard to tell from the photos.

They installed the near boiler piping in iron, with swing joints as required.  Why they chose to connect to the main system with copper makes no sense.  It should be in iron, because the copper joints are likely to fail.  Copper is OK for anything below the water line.  Also, the connection to the steam main should not be in a reduced pipe size.  It should be no less than the original piping coming out of the Tee with the drip leg drop, or the 2 1/2" header, whichever is smaller.  The drip leg also should not be reduced, it needs to carry all of the condensate coming back from the system, without allowing it to flow back to the steam supply connection.

The main reason for the noise is probably related to surging, and I'd assume the the boiler needs to be skimmed much more than has already been done.  The cleaning chemical will help, but you still have to flush all of that contaminate out of the system.  Surging and carryover issues caused by inadequate skimming and cleaning are only magnified by the inadequate piping, which will cause the steam to travel at too great of a velocity, and tend to cause carryover, even when the boiler is completely clean.

Those are my thoughts.  I am sure others will chime in too!

BobC

Piping is too small

That reducer at the outlet of the boiler is bad news. If you look at pages 14-15 of the installation manual it specifically states the steam outlet and header have to be 2-1/2" pipe, reducing it to 2" will pretty insure lots of wet steam.



Set the pressuretrol's inside dial back down to 1 and make sure the tab on front is down at 0.5, that should get the boiler operating point between 0.5 and 1.5PSI. That is enough pressure to heat any house.



Get the installer to replace the 2" pipe with 2-1/2" threaded steel pipe as it states in the install manual - I've enclosed a copy of the manual if you need it. check the rest of the near boiler to make sure it meets the installation manual requirements. Just so you know the OD of the various pipes should be

 2-1/2 pipe = 2.87" OD

 1-1/2 pipe = 1.66" OD



After the piping is corrected, the boiler has to be skimmed to get rid any contamination. Don't let them just toss in a bottle of goop and run away.



Bob

clammy

piping and pressuretrol

The boiler piping leaves alot to be desired and from the pic your pressurtrol is not set up correctly ,the pointer on the cover should be set at .5  not at 2 and if you remove the over the wheel should be at 1 ,Also looking at you location for your main vent is not correct it should be at the end of the mains before they drop into your wet returns ,the near boiler piping is not correct either ,the bullheaded tee should have been seperated and tied into a real header seperatly ,the header should have been 21/2 pipe at a minium not 2 if the boiler had 2 risers they should have been used and adding squick is BS the guy should have skimmed the boiler ,It may seem like they did not do the job correctly but not to defend them there is a big price difference between what they did and what really should have been done i know cause i lose jobs like yours all the time and what you got is exatly what the jobs i lose look like on the other hand when i finish my jobs they work there quite there piped in steel pipe with oversized headers and the pipes are insulated,main vents are cut in at the end of the mains .Sorry you got what you did but it is a buyer beware type of thing i would doubt the guys who installed this would be able to do it right in the first place  the copper piping is the dead give away peace and good luck clammy

k00k

Pipe sizing, etc

Thanks for the advice thus far. I was of course leery of the copper pipe, and will call them in the morning about it and the improper sizing of the riser and header.



The riser and header pipe are indeed 2", not 2.5" like the manual states they should be. The equalizer pipe is correct at 1.5" as the manual states it should be.



The pressuretrol internal dial was set to 1. The external was set to 2 as I stated. I'm not sure if the guy that visited yesterday adjusted it upwards or downwards to 2.



Fingers crossed that they'll correct the problems without a fight.

clammy

drop the outside adjustment

KooK drop that external setting to .5 that may stop some of the hammering a little bit ,also do you have main vents at the end of the steam mains that is where they should be located not in steam piping near the boiler .Also take a look at some of the reference materal on this site .Was the boiler sized to the load ,measure all your raditors and find there rated EDR and muliply that by 1.33  then by 240 and that should be the correct size boiler that you would need in btus .Also being it is oil did these guys perform  a combustion test and check your oil burners pump pressure to specs to ensure that it isste and  functioning properly ,Sorry if i seemed hard but i just tell it like it is i have no reason to lie about it peace and good luck clammy

k00k

Sizing

I did the math as you outlined Clammy. I come up with a total of 105,958.44.



Not sure if they did a combustion test.



The only main-line vent is the one in the photo near the boiler. All of the steam pipes just go from there up to the radiators without any vents in between. All radiators have new adjustable vari-valve vents on them.

BobC

mains

Looking at your pictures again it looks like the steam main is sloping up as it goes away from the boiler. If that is true then the air vent belongs towards the end of the main (pst the last radiator feed). You have to vent the air for the steam to fill the main completely. If your not venting the end of the main your forcing the radiators to do it and that is not good.



If that steam main is highest at the boiler and slopes down as it goes away the vent should be near the point the pipe drops to form the wet return to the boiler.



Make sure the installer didn't change the slope of the main piping above the boiler to mate up with the boiler piping. make sure that steam main slopes the same way along it's length.



You said all the radiators have varivents on them now, what were the old radiator vents? Those are pretty aggressive vents and along with the improper boiler piping you may have brought a lot of wet steam up into the piping where it might be trapped by incorrect pipe slope - and that will cause water hammer. That sort of problem would usually show up quickly but if the weather has been fairly mild it would take longer to become apparent.



good luck,



Bob

k00k

Sloping up

Bob, Yes, you're correct. The steam main slopes upward away from the boiler and continues to do so through all of the branches off to the various radiators (as best I can tell - insulation makes it a bit hard to gauge with and without a level). So with that in mind, I should have a main line vent(s) where? Right before the elbows that send the feed pipes up through the floor to the radiators? Currently, there is A LOT of air (wet too) that gets vented through the vents on the radiators themselves and it continues pretty much as long as the heating system is firing.



The old radiator vents were all different from one another. One round one, a couple longer ones, a total mix. Not sure if there are specific styles/names.

Steamhead

No way did they do a combustion test

with the barometric that close to the breech (boiler exhaust outlet) there's no room to insert the probe!



That and the too-small piping are fatal to this job.

BobC

location of main vents

With the main sloping up from the boiler you have a counterflow system, that means the steam and water are flowing in different directions.



The main vents want to be at the high end of the main, after the last radiator takeoff on each main; that main vent will then vent all the air in the main. That way the radiator vents will just have to vent the radiators and the individual pipes coming off the steam main and you will be able to dial the Varivents way down and the spitting should stop. Of course this assumes the near boiler piping gets configured like the installation manual dictates.



Check the piping to see if there are any tappings that could be used in the main past the last radiator takeoff on each main. How many steam mains does the system have and how long are they? Post a picture of the end of the main(s) so we can see what you have. Once we have that information we can tell how much venting you need on the main(s).



Bob

k00k

Spraying

I'll try to get some pics of the steam lines tomorrow in the daylight.



Heat just came on and was banging as hard as ever. One of the radiators sprayed/streamed about a half gallon of Squix colored water on the wall and floor. Ugh. I need to figure out the list of corrections I need the installer to make.

BobC

Squirting vents

Did you you get the Heat Timer Varivalve or the Dole Varivent? There is a difference, the Heat Timers do not have floats so they cannot stop water flow - of course if they had installed things properly you would not have water up there!



The Hoffman 1A's and Dole Varivents do not have the high capacity but it does have a float that will close it if water gets that far. I've attached a picture of the heat Timer and a PDF fore the Doles.



Make sure you turn that Pressuretrol down so the tab on the front is at 0.5, there is a screw on top that allows you to adjust the tab on the front. High pressure will make things worse.



Bob

k00k

Vent-rite

Oops, my bad, they're actually Vent-Rite no. 1. Sorry been a bit stressed today.



Here's a link:

http://heating-and-cooling.hardwarestore.com/97-581-air-valves/air-valve-167254.aspx



Pressuretrol is at 0.5 and I notice no improvement.

TomM

hell...

might as well skim that mofo then.  there's a 1.5" tapping right above the cutoff switch, to the right of the sightglass.  looks like you have some conduit in the way though.  i'm sure there's skimming instructions in 'resources' or past posts.

BobC

skim port

Tom is right about using that tapping to skim the boiler. move the conduit and put in a nipple with a cap on it so you skim anytime it's necessary - better yet have your installer (hence to to known as a knucklehead) put in the nipple and cap since he screwed everything up in the first place.



BTW did they drain the boiler before adding that goop?



Bob

k00k

nipples and flushing

I'm going to speak with the owner of the installation company in the morning, so I'll refrain from doing anything to the boiler tonight. 



I had flushed some water out the night before they added the goop, but it wasn't a full flush, I had just drained maybe a couple gallons at most and refilled it back while the boiler was cold.

BobC

flush before adding

I am just naive enough to hope that someone who was going top add chemicals to help clean a boiler would take the time to flush out the boiler completely before adding chemicals.



Good luck with your meeting tomorrow, I'd show him the damage he caused to your walls and floor so he has good idea of the damage he's caused.



Bob

k00k

Pipe layout

Here are photos and a diagram of my steam pipe layout.



http://bit.ly/fP3Uva

BobC

Main vent

That main vent is much too small (Ventrite 35?) and the main looks like a closed loop with radiator leaders coming off it. That setup was fine with coal but not nearly enough for a modern boiler. I'd start by using a longer nipple off the main and then top it off with a Gorton #2 vent. Since the system was designed with the vent in that spot I'd stick with that location until proven wrong. maybo one of the pro's will have an idea on a better location?



The #2 is physically large so you have to play it by ear as far as the nipples length and it has a 1/2" male thread so you may need a reducer on top of the nipple. The Gorton #2 has over 8 times the venting capacity of what I think you have now. You may actually need more venting than that but it will be a huge improvement over what you have now.



I've enclosed a picture of my main vent which is a Hoffman 75 (green at the end of the main where it heads down to the boiler return) and it's bleeding the air from a 16 ft long parallel flow steam main.



Bob

Charlie from wmass

The main vent is on the feed isn't it?

Wrong end of the piping, small pipe and copper. Boiler does not stand a chance of turning 5 never mind 50. A case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. 3" header and all iron on the steam feed.

Dave in QCA

Manufacturer's Installation Instructions

Since you have a meeting coming up with the contractor that installed the boiler, and I hope you are meeting with someone of authority of that company, like the owner, or general manager,  I would focus on the things that they did they did not comply with the manufacturer's specifcations.  These are as follows:



Page 14, Table for One Pipe Counterflow, calls for one riser from the boiler with 2 1/2" pipe, header 2 1/2" , equalizer 1 1/2".

It looks like your riser and header are either 1 1/2" or 2" and your equalizer is 1" or 1 1/4".  It's hard to tell from the photos.

They installed the near boiler piping in iron, with swing joints as required.  Why they chose to connect to the main system with copper makes no sense.  It should be in iron, because the copper joints are likely to fail.  Copper is OK for anything below the water line.  Also, the connection to the steam main should not be in a reduced pipe size.  It should be no less than the original piping coming out of the Tee with the drip leg drop, or the 2 1/2" header, whichever is smaller.  The drip leg also should not be reduced, it needs to carry all of the condensate coming back from the system, without allowing it to flow back to the steam supply connection.

Also, on page 25, under skimming, items 1-7 describe skimming that is required and also, the introductory paragraph in this section describes exactly what is occuring in your boiler right now.  I have cut and pasted the paragraph, it is as follows: 



Skim steam boiler:

Clean new steam boilers to remove any impurities. Failure to properly clean can result in violent water level fluctuations, water passing into steam mains, or high maintenance costs on strainers, traps or vents.  Skim boiler only. Do not clean old piping or leaks can occur.





Your piping setup is unusual, but is not the cause of your difficulties right now, after all it worked just fine with your old boiler and you were not firing coal.  

Also, their is an issue with the way the barometric draft regulator was installed.  The manual shows typical installations and refers to the draft regulator's manufacturer for exact instructions.  At any rate, it should not be attached directly to the boiler as they have done.





Down  the road, but not at the present discussion with the contractor, I would consider adding another main vent at the middle of the back part of the loop, the point that is farthest away from the boiler.  Right now, your main vent is only venting the air as it comes out of the boiler and the rad vents are doing the rest.  It has apparently worked for 80+ years, and given the lenght of your lateral runs to the radiators, there will still be a large amount of piping air that those radiators have to vent, even with an addition main vent.

But, I don't think the main vent is causing the serious problems that you are experiencing.  The cause is most likely the boiler cleaning and skimming that has not been adequately done.  While they're completing that task, they might as well install the boiler with piping according to Weil-Mclain's requirements, otherwise your warrantee will be worthless and it will never operate correctly.

Keep us posted on how your meeting turns out as well as the final resolution of your boiler problems.



In a couple of weeks, I'd love to hear that they repiped it, skimmed it, etc., and that it's working perfectly!



Dave

k00k

A quick update

Just a quick update. The installer was out here this morning and agreed to make the changes I requested, I'll give a full update when the work is done in a day or two. Just wanted to say thanks for the info.

clammy

A bit more advise

kook i negelected to add afew other thoughts ,i did not notice that your system was a counter flow  sorry ,usually i drip each main and would use a vaporstat instead of the honeywell pa4040 that you have ,i would not use varients they vent way to fast i would opt for some honeywell 1a adjustable great vent with a stainless steel tounge i have had them in systems and they have performed well up to about 12 years good vent ,a added bonus would be to get a main vent in at the end of each of your mains by the last rad that will really help get the air out and even out the arrival of steam amoung all your rads .Hope to see you post some postive results peace and good luck clammy

k00k

Finally

I'm back. After a week of some arguing, coaxing, and finally getting almost all I wanted, I'm happy to report that the heating contractor just left and the hammering is gone. Fingers crossed that it stays that way.



The short version of the story is that they never wanted to replace the 2" piping, copper or otherwise, and said time and time again that it should be fine that way. They also never skimmed it in the first place which I think was a MAJOR issue.



The Weil McLain sales rep came with them this morning. He confirmed everything I told them, 2 1/2 inch, skim it, blablabla. All the obvious stuff. In any case, today, they replaced any 2 inch and copper pipe with 2 1/2" threaded black steel. The Weil McLain guy also had them replace the low water cutoff with one that also senses for foam. Not sure how that unit will work out as it also has the intermittent water test feature, which I think could make it short-cycle too frequently. We'll see.



After they replaced everything and skimmed it for a couple hours, they fired it up and the steam mains and feeds were silent. Amen. It's now been running for close to an hour with not a peep. Double amen.



Thanks to all here for the help thus far, it's proved invaluable.



The 5 newest photos in my album are of the new work:

http://bit.ly/h93Y06

BobC

Nice to see it done right

If the installers had done that from the get go they would have made some money on this job! I'm glad the manufactures rep backed you up, nice to see them go to bat for the customer.



I hope you and that system have a long quiet relationship.



Bob

k00k

Thanks

Thanks Bob, I hope we do too.



Now, the only thing I have to get right is my radiator venting. I still have the adjustable ventrite vents. They vent a good amount of air and can be a bit noisy, but I think that's mainly because I only have that 1 main line vent.

Oak Park Electric

Hate to ruin a party, BUT...

Did anyone notice the 2 1/2 x 2  CONCENTRIC bushing in the right side of the tee that goes to the equalizer?  Reducing it there is not generally done, and certainly not that way.  If it was an eccentric bell, it would still be cheesy but at least it would not trap condensate in the bottom of the tee.  This may or may not be a source of actual problems to come.  Only time will tell.  Also, it  *looks* like there is still no backflow preventer on the water supply. Chinese fittings, too. Definitely don't call these guys for anything else.

Dave in QCA

the remaining error

Yes, I noticed the one remaining piping error.  It is so hard to follow simple instructions!

I would suggest that you contact the WM representative, have him look at your photos and have him sign off that the piping is OK.  He may or may not be willing to accept it.

The issue is, the heater should remain the same size until it is heating downward.  No size reduction in the horizontal header.