Radiator Won't Heat!

Jeremy_16

Hey Everyone,



I manage a 16 unit apartment building (4 apartments per floor) with one pipe steam heat. One two bedroom apartment on the first floor is always a lot colder than the rest of the apartments. The building is balanced fairly well and most apartments are around 70 degrees during the day (we have space sensors in each unit), while the colder first floor unit is around 60 to 64. 



Part of the problem is that one wall hung steam radiator was removed from one of the bedrooms (by a former owner). There is no kitchen radiator (only the main above). The living room radiator doesn’t really ever heat up past the first column (see picture below).  That leaves only one wall hung radiator in the second bedroom that works and the mains themselves that run through the apartment. The mains are boxed in with some vent covers allowing some heat to pass through.



I would really like to figure out, for starters, how to get the living room radiator to work. The supply pipe gets steaming hot all the way up to the valve and then ever so slowly the radiator starts to heat. We’ve left the boiler on for about an hour and the radiator still doesn’t even get warm past the first section, while the rest of the building is roasting. The first column is piping hot, but the rest of the first section is only warm.



Here’s what I’ve done so far:



1.    Checked to make sure the valve did not get stuck closed.  My plumber took it apart and it made sure it was open all the way and then put it back together.



2.    We double vented the radiator by adding a second vent at the top to see if that

helped; it didn’t.



3.    We took the vents off completely while the boiler was running and didn’t really

feel much air moving out.



4.    We just corrected a slight back pitch in the radiator and it still didn’t seem to

make the radiator heat any better. (there was no noise before but I thought it

was worth a try - see picture).



Do you think I need a new radiator? Can mine be fixed? Could a section be rusted shut or sediment of some kind be caught in there? Is there something else that I haven’t thought of? Any suggestions would be great?



-Jeremy

Rod

Non Functioning Radiator

Hi Jeremy-

    I looked at your photos and have attached one of them with arrows and questions.  It hard to see with in the photo with the wire etc. but I think that maybe you have a bit too much pitch on the radiator and that can cause problems as the condensate (water) all runs to the inlet end and blocks the steam getting into the radiator. Using a level, you just want enough slope to show the water which way to go. One of my other questions is how many radiators are attached to this pipe and also what is the fitting /attachment do that is in the lower right hand side of the picture?    Another thing- If you shut off the other radiators on the same vertical pipe, will this radiator heat up?   That might help tell if it was a radiator or a supply problem.

- Rod

-

BobC

Too much EDR

If there are three more floors of this type of radiator on that riser you may not have enough capacity in that steam riser, it would be helpful to know the EDR of all the other radiators on this riser.

After you go through Rod's suggestions and if shutting the other radiators on this riser off lets the problem child heat, try lowering the venting rate on the other radiators so this one gets it's share of the steam. Have these radiators been upsized at any point?



Bob

Jeremy_16

Update!

Rod and BobC, thanks for your responses.



Rod, let me address your questions from the photo.



1. Regarding "Too much pitch?": The photo is misleading because the enclosure is built on an angle. I took a bubble level to the radiator and there is only a slight pitch towards the valve.



2. Regarding "How many radiators are connected to this pipe?": I believe that there are only 3 other radiators connected to that pipe (2nd, 3rd, and 4th floor bedrooms each have 1 radiator). That pipe is also the drip for the above radiators that connects to the wet return.



Could condensate raining down interfere with steam distribution to that radiator?



3. Where you wrote: "What's this?" --> please see the first picture below. It is a drip, but also in between is a radiator set up to collect the hot condensate in an attempt to bring more heat into the room (this was done by a former owner and it doesn't work well). The second picture is a photo from the other bedroom with no wall hung radiator, but you can see there is a supply pipe that probably used to connect to a wall hung rad.)



Rod, I took your advice and shut the 3 radiators above that room and the 3 radiators in the livingrooms above (the livingroom is next door to this room and has it's own riser and drip line, but I wanted to make sure I isolated the hard to heat rad). After doing that and running the boiler, the radiator heated all the way across. So I guess I have a supply problem, right? Now I know the radiator isn't clogged with sediment or rust.



BobC:



I'm not sure of the exact EDR, but as far as I know all radiators in the building are original and have not been changed.  Almost all of them say FRB on them. A few radiators in kitchens have been removed, and the radiator in the bedroom in my hard to heat apartment was removed (see second photo), but nothing was added or upsized as far as I know...



Some of the radiators on floors above have Gorton D valves on them so they can't be adjusted. The others have Vent Rite adjustables with the 8 settings and could be adjusted, but I haven't tried lowing them down yet and would rather not restrict the heat if there were other options? Is there anything else to try?



Questions:



1. I always thought the way the problem radiator was piped was strange because the steam needed to go down, in the same direction as condensate returning from other radiators, in order to get into the radiator. Could it be piped improperly, or have some of you seen this set up before? Could condensate raining down restrict the steam?



2. Would adding insulation to the main from the boiler room all the way to the front of the building help? Right now the mains are soffitted inside the walls. Taking all of the soffits down would be a lot of work because of the need to replaster and paint, but it is possible. This might give the radiator a greater chance of receiving steam instead of the steam condensing in the mains - unless #1 is the problem.



3. Could changing or increasing the main venting help? I think that my main vent needs to be replaced. I believe it is an old Hoffman 75 (the vent is green on the outside). Could increasing venting or even just replacing what I have make a difference? The main vent was making a lot of hissing noise. When I shut all of the supply vavles to the above radiators, the hard to heat radiator was making a lot of hissing noise too as it heated up (it never made any noise before because it never got hot)



4. Any other ideas?

BobC

Venting

That piping arrangement is certainly unique, but then it might just be a technique I'm unfamiliar with. You might well be better of without that extra radiator. Are all the radiators in the building set up like this, if they are and the rest work than it might point to venting issues. Does this riser get fed towards the end of a main?



Tell us how long each main in the basement is and what size pipe it is (outside diameter or circumference will do). Then we can calculate the mains volume and figure out what size vent it should have.



As far as EDR goes try measuring the circumference of the two different column sizes )I think there are only two) using a piece of string, and then the number of each type of column and their height. From that we can determine the EDR for that radiator. Also measure the diameter (or circumference) of the riser that feeds all of them. this will let us check to be sure that riser has the capacity to feed all 4 radiators.



All the piping and fittings in the basement should have 1" pipe insulation on it.



Bob

Jeremy_16

BobC

Thanks again for the response.



All of the first floor radiators are set up in such a way that the steam must go down in the same direction as the condensate to get to the wall hung radiator. They don't all have hot water radiators below them for the condensate to go into on it's way back to the boiler though.



The riser in the pictures with the problem radiator is the last or second to last on the main. The last two risers are only 2 feet away from each other on the main.



I was planning on mapping out the pipe sizes of the mains to figure out the best venting, but it won't be easy because most of the mains are boxed in and not accessible. Some have vent covers that can be removed from the soffits, so I can try to remove them to get a hand in to measure. I have been hesitant to change any of the main venting because the building is pretty much balanced right now (except for the one problem apartment out of 16 total)



I'll try to get all of those measurements soon. I'm pretty sure the riser to the problem radiator gets smaller as it goes up each floor. Is that common? If I get the diameters of each type of column in the radiator do you just add up the volumes using charts like you would with a main? I can probably get at least some of the information on Monday.



Anything else to look for or do?

ryanr256

That radiator looks like

the one in my garage, only nicer.



Here's a link to the thread:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/132923/Help-w-EDR-of-this-radiator



-Bob

BobC

rad EDR and piping

Jeremy,



That post Ryan referred you to states his radiator was 27" tall and had 6 sections for a total length of about 75" and that the EDR was 54 sq ft. If yours is longer or higher it will have more EDR. Hopefully that will save you some legwork.



The reason I'm interested in the riser is a certain sized Pipe can only supply so much EDR, if you are close to that limit pipe layout and venting become critical. You might have to vent some of the upper radiators a bit slower to let this problem child get his share of the pie. Also make sure any horizontal piping is slightly sloped (use a small level) to let the condensate find it's way back to the boiler. Any pooling water can (partially) collapse the steam before it makes it to the radiator.



The riser might get smaller to reduce cost and weight, the guys that installed this stuff originally were pretty good about getting things right. If things haven't been changed the issues are usually with the venting because of the difference between the original coal and the current gas or oil fired heat sources.



What vents are you using on each radiator on this riser?



Hopefully some of the more experienced hands will look over this thread to catch any clues I might have missed.



BTW do you have "The Lost Art of Steam Heat"? it really is a great read.



good luck,



Bob

Rod

"Problem" radiator

Hi Jeremy-

   Even though the piping is, ah, rather "irregular", since the radiator got hot when you shut off the other radiators on the line, this shows that it can get steam.  If the steam is supplied from above the problem radiator, a question I have it where are the main vents on the pipe, above or below the problem radiator?

Main vents and insulation - Large, even multiple, main vents are a good idea. You mentioned that some of the radiators have Gorton "D" vents on them. Gorton "D" have the same venting capacity as a Gorton #1 main vent so these "D" radiator vents maybe making up for a lack of main venting capacity rather just being a radiator vent.  You said you were concerned about decreasing the size of the radiator vents in the apartments above and you would probably be right if in fact the "D" radiator vents are acting as main vents, the whole system might suffer if you decreased them. The solution to this is to obviously increase the capacity of the main vents.  I've attached a photo of multiple main venting done by Gerry Gill, a steam pro located in the Cleveland area.





Insulation- Insulation is always beneficial as more steam will be available to the radiators.

See this link of Dan's on insulation:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/300/Why-you-should-insulate-steam-pipes

With adequate main venting and insulation, I'd then try to "ration" the steam to all the radiators on this common pipe. I'd remove the Gorton "D"s and try a radiator vent of less capacity and see if they would all now heat evenly.   With the Gorton "D's on those radiators, steam is able to enter the cold radiator very quickly and then condense on the cold radiator walls. This creates a huge vacuum which sucks in a lot of the available steam and if the steam supply available is limited, starves the other radiators down the line.

The condensate "radiators" I would think about eventually removing as I can't see that they are doing much good and are now just collecting dirt and standing water.

- Rod

Dave in QCA

Overhead Feed?

I have been mulling your problems over in my head, and as I come back now to offer some thoughts, I find that Rod has already posted all, if not all of them.

If the steam is coming down from above, this must be an overhead distribution.  If it is an overhead, one-pipe system, which it surely appears to be, there should be a riser vent at the bottom of each drop riser before it drops below the water line.  If not, then all venting is occuring in the radiators and if so, the first radiators will tend to act as vacuums, sucking all of the steam they can get.  Of course, there may be a vent in the main in the attic to assure that the steam quickly gets to the end of main.  It appears that they system has been cobbled by the addition of radiators in what should be the drip leg in one or more of the drop risers.

There is a good diagram of this type of system on page 92 and also a nice desription on pages 92-94, The Lost Art of Steam Heating.  In the narrative, it mentions that vents at the bottoms of the drop risers are critical, otherwise the building will heat from the top down, with the lower floors being starved for heat. 

Also, the general recommendation to "vent your mains quickly and your radiators slowly" is always a good thing to remember.  I like Hoffman 1A for balancing, but in a multifamily building, they have the disadvantage that occupants will adjust them and mess up your balancing work.  If the radiators are mostly the same size, I would consider using Hoffman #40 vents everywhere. 

       (leans back in my chair as the wall utters a collective "GASP")

You describe that even when the boiler has been running for an hour, that he first floor radiators do not fully heat, therefore it appears that your boiler may be a bit smaller than the total EDR of the system.  Venting the upper floors with vents that are smaller than they would be in the normal formula for balanced venting may be necessary to get the steam down to the first floor.

Jeremy_16

Responses!

Hey Everyone,



Thanks for the responses. I did a lot of work today figuring out pipe sizes and diagramming the steam mains in the building, etc.



BobC: My problem radiator is 28.5" tall with 4 sections that are each 13.5" wide making the total width 54" wide. The big columns equate to a pipe size of about 2.5" and the small columns equate to a pipe size of about 2". I used a string to figure out the external circumference and then used the chart I found on this website to get the pipe sizes. The columns are not circular though, so the measurements may be slightly off. What would the EDR be given those measurements?



The main is 3" pipe from the boiler room and then turns into 2.5" pipe in the colder apartment. The riser from the main to the problem radiator starts at 2" and then 90's into the next room between the first and second floor (I can't see it but I assume the horizontal portion is also 2" as well) Then the horizontal portion T's into a riser going up feeding floors above and a riser going down towards the problem radiators supply (see first picture from first post) and the drip. The T must be a reducing T because the riser seen coming from the second floor to the third floor is 1.5" and the riser going towards the problem radiator downwards is 1.5". The supply to the problem radiator is 1.25". The wet return is 1". The riser measured on the third floor going to the fourth floor is 1.25". The supply from the riser to each radiator on floors 2-4 is 1.25". I hope that all made sense. If you have any clarification questions, please let me know. After seeing the numbers does that seem appropriate?



I included a picture of my main distribution system below. I took the original blue print of the building and drew over it. The plan you see is for the second floor and the mains are directly below the second floor (basically near the ceiling of the first floor). The red square is the boiler room. The orange rectangle is the boiler. The black lines are the mains. The green circles are where the main vents are located. There may be an old main vent at the end of the 3rd main but it is inside a wall so I have no way to know. The blue lines are the drips to the wet return. By the way, the problem radiator is located below the room at the bottom left of the plan where it says "Bedroom 11x13"



I do own a copy of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" and some of other Dan's books. They have been very helpful, but I'm continually re-reading and learning.



Rod: The main vent is above the problem radiator. See picture of the end of the main below. This main is right next to the room where my problem radiator is. The riser closest to the foreground of the picture is what I believe to be the riser feeding the problem radiator and the apartments above as well.



After seeing how the main vent is set up, I'm assuming that the air flow is restricted to the main vent because of the reducing fittings and the main vent is very old and should be changed anyway. I think it would probably be best to put an antler or menorah venting station where the main vent is currently located. Then, as you suggested, I can lower the venting on the above radiators. I will need to break up the ceiling to fit new main vents though. Hopefully there is room above...



Do you think it is worth ripping down the soffited pipes in order to insulate the mains? I would need to clear out most of the tenants' belongings in each room, then re-plaster and paint most of the apartment. Is it worth it? Do you think the apartment would be a lot colder if I did that as well? Right now there are vent registers letting the warm air into some of the rooms.



Dave in QCA: my diagram below should clear up some confusion. We do not have a downfeed system. It is upfeed except for the first floor which contain radiators right below the mains. Also, there have been no extra steam radiators added, only two condensate radiators which are below the water level. It's not that all of the first floor radiators have a problem, only this one particular radiator in one room.

BobC

Riser SB fine, on to venting

Jeremy,



Your wall mount radiators seem to be 2/3's the size of the radiator that ryan reffered to so it should have an EDR of about 36 sr ft. Four of them would have an EDR of 144 which is well below the 288 that Dans table on pg 89 of TLAOSH rates the riser for - so that theory on riser pipe size is out the window.



BTW I find myself rereading Dans' books everytime I need detailed information, there is an amazing amount of information in them.



Are you sure that horizontal pipe connecting to the radiator is pitched back towards the supply so water can drain out? those short pipes can be misleading so put a level on it.



Other than that I think it's time to play with the venting as Rod suggested. Vent that main more aggressively and try slowing the vent rates on the other radiators on the riser.



Bob

Dave in QCA

I missunderstood your piping setup

Thanks for the clarifications.  I agree with Rod and BobC that the issue is in venting. 

You also asked whether the piping should be insulated.  There are two ways to look at it.  When piping is in a basement, the heat that it radiats is not needed adds significantly to the cost to operate the boiler.  However, in your case, it may have been factored into the design to heat the first floor.  Did you say that the EDR of the first floor radiators is less than the upper floors in the same corresponding rooms?  If so, than the piping was certainly figured into the original heating calculations and should not be insulated. 

Rod

Main Venting

Hi Jeremy-   From the picture, it would look like you're a bit under vented. Would it be possible to attach a full sized 90 degree elbow and pipe to where the small (looks like 1/8 inch )  vent pipe is now attached to the reducer tee  and run it through one of the walls to a better (more accessible/more clearance ) location where you could attach more venting?    The vent attached now looks like a Hoffman 75 (?)  



  As for the insulation- I wouldn't worry about that at this point as the hassle probably far out weighs the benefit.   As mentioned before I would just concentrate on improving the main venting first and then slow down the other radiators.

Another enhancement might be try  TRVS on the other larger radiators if the rooms where they are located get too hot.  This also might  free up more heat for the "problem" radiator

- Rod

Jeremy_16

What to do...

Thanks again for the responses.



Dave in QCA: The pipes were covered with some asbestos until 1988. I have some records of its removal in certain areas of the apartment. For example the record says "remove 4' from pantry area." From what I gather, there must have been more that was removed at some point before that (there is nothing on them now). Why would only one section have been covered, right? I know that the rear main the building (which used to run through a storage area, laundry room, etc.) was covered with asbestos and it was removed as well. You bring up a good point though to consider that it may have been by design. I just don't think that it was in this case given the records I just came across.



Also, I don't think I ever mentioned that the EDR of the first floor radiators was less than the upper floors. I did say, however, that one steam radiator was removed from one of the bedrooms in the cold apartment. That would mean that I may need to add it back if I insulate pipes.



BobC: I think the radiators above are about 38 EDR for each room on the riser above the cold radiator, so it would make sense that the first floor rad had an EDR of 36. So say the total was 144 EDR as you say. Using the chart on the bottom right of page 89 in TLAOSH wouldn't we look at 1.5" pipe which is a maximum capacity of 152 square feet EDR. The 2 inch pipe goes vertically as shown the picture in my last post but then it turns 90 degrees (making it horizontal). It then connects to the upfeed riser in the next room and the drip. The upfeed riser is 1.5" pipe. So the maximum capacity of the pipe is close to what we have hooked up to it, but still underneath it. That should be ok, right?



Also, I am sure that the small horizontal pipe connecting the radiator to the riser is pitched properly. I put a 6 inch level up to it to check.



Rod: I think that I am under vented as well. However I do have some hesitations to changing the venting. Let me explain:



In another building I manage, I added 4 gorton #2 vents to a main that previously only had a hoffman #75. I found that it only made a small difference where I thought it would have been a lot greater (could be because some radiators had gorton D's on them already and there was already some master venting done on the top of a couple of risers).



I then insulated the near boiler piping and exposed areas of all of the mains in that same building. The insulation made a HUGE difference! I have a heat timer control with internet communication panel. I can go online and see graphs of how long the boiler runs, temperatures of apartments, etc. Anyway, I'm not sure if you are familiar with how heat timer works or maybe someone else reading this might not be so I'll quickly explain:



There is an indoor sensor placed on the end of one of the mains. There is also an outdoor sensor that reads how cold it is outside. On a reasonably cold day, you start the boiler up and see how long it takes to "establish heat." Establishing heat is defined as how long it takes for the radiator furthest from the boiler room to start getting the first tube or so warm. (After the first tube on the farthest rad gets warm you look at the temperature on the indoor sensor and set the heat timer to start the cycle at that temperature) Then the heating cycle begins. The colder it is outside, the longer the cycle time. For example at 45 degrees the cycle might be 4 minutes. At 25 degrees it might be 14 minutes. It all depends how you set the building.



Anyway, before adding insulation to the near boiler piping it took about 12 to 16 minutes to establish heat. After adding the insulation it takes 7 to 11 minutes to establish heat. That's a huge savings during the fall and spring seasons when the cycle is very short. In addition to lowering the establishing heat time, the steam seems to move further and warms up the furthest radiators way more consistently than before (I can tell because the space sensors in the previously cooler apartments tend to read higher temperatures than last year)



I'm wondering if adding insulation to the mains in my current cold apartment would also have the same effect... Steam my travel further to that one radiator where it doesn't now. I will try the venting too I guess, but if I add venting to this main, I think I will have to add it to the other mains to balance them, correct? When calculating the volume of air to vent in the pipes, should I consider all the areas that branch off as well?



Without including the branches I think that I need about 3 Gorton #2s. I have about 37 feet of 3 inch pipe and 33 feet of 2.5 inch pipe and the header to vent on the main going to the cold apartment. The other mains also need about the same given their pipe size and lengths. If I need to get 9 Gorton #2s (3 for each main), plus the piping for the venting stations, and tear up some walls (to get access to the ends of the mains) etc, it is going to cost a good deal of money. I am very willing to spend that money if I am sure I will get results.



I think the first thing I will try to do is build a venting station where you suggested. I will try to create some type of antler in the same area where the current hoffman 75 vent is pictured in my last post. Before installing the antler I will break the ceiling above and see if I have space to put the vents. I don't see any other way to attach them properly. Before I buy and install any vents I will install a set up with a valve I can open and close. I can then test to see how long it takes to vent the main with a 3/4 inch open pipe. If it is a lot faster than current and it helps warm up the radiator, I will proceed with installing more venting. It's the method Gerry Gill and Steve Pajek describe in their "Balancing Steam Systems" PDF. Does that idea sound good?



The apartments above the cold apartment are currently around 68 to 70 degrees on a daily basis. Legally we must provide 68 during the day. I don't want to add any TRV's to the apartments directly above because those 3 apartments never get too hot.



I know I wrote a lot, but let me know what you think of my idea to test the additional venting approach and also my idea about insulation. I guess the first thing to do would be the venting (see how that works) and then if it doesn't help add insulation. Is there anything else to consider that I might have missed?

Rod

Vents & Insulation

Hi Jeremy- One of the things I find in trading posts like this is that as more information is added, the mental picture in your head of the system that is being discussed changes considerably, though with your excellent descriptions I think we now have a pretty good idea of your system.



As I see it the problem is one of preserving the steam in the main in question (with insulation) so that enough reaches the end of the main and then dividing the steam proportionately to the radiators connected to that main (proper main and radiator vents)



On insulation- It does make a big difference!  You mentioned that you would have to do lot of removal and reinstall of soffits etc. so in my earlier reply I was a bit concerned with disruption of your tenants which is why I questioned the overall “benefits”.  How much of the main piping is readily accessible? Perhaps you could start  with the accessible parts  and then do the “hard” parts at a later time more convenient time for the tenants.   Applying even small sections of insulation would help as it cuts the overall heat loss from the piping and therefore more steam reaches to the far end of the main.



Venting- I wouldn’t worry too much about balance to the other mains if they are getting steam okay now. I don’t think the allotted  amounts of steam to the mains will change that much. I would think your “problem”  main is now getting a reasonable amount of steam and we just have to preserve  and distribute it properly.  If you use high capacity radiator vents to do the job of the main vents, they aren’t just releasing the air from the main and the radiators, they are allowing a large amount steam to very rapidly fill the radiator. Keep in mind that when a cubic foot of steam condenses, it instantly changes into a cubic inch of water, so when the large volume of  steam hits the cold inner walls of the radiators it condenses and produces a huge vacuum which then pulls in much more steam.  With a limited amount of steam available, the smaller radiators (with smaller condensing volume)  can’t compete with the larger radiators for the steam and so they starve.  The role of the main vents is to get the air out of the mains as quickly as possible so steam can reach the radiators. The role of the radiator vents while releasing air from the radiators is to also initially control the rate of steam entering and condensing in the radiator.  



Ideally the main vents would be on the down steam side of the “problem” radiator but I think by increasing the venting capacity of your present main vents and using a fairly large capacity vent on the “problem” radiator in conjunction with smaller capacity vents on the large radiators, it should even the heating out.  Adding insulation to the bare main will further help as it should increase the supply of available steam to the radiators.

- Rod

Jeremy_16

Rod:

Thanks for the suggestions. I know what you mean about how the picture in your head changes as more information is divulged, so I appreciate your continued responses.



I was thinking again last night about tearing down the soffits and I then got a good idea. I thought that I could simply cut the front of them to access the pipes, insulate the pipes, and then re-sheet rock the front of the soffits. It will be a bit of work and money, but there would be no need to tear down the whole soffit. It would still be a little inconvenient to the tenants, but not the end of the world. By insulating the main I'm hoping to get similar results to what I had in the other building (more heat to the

radiators).



Wouldn’t adding more venting to one main affect the amount of steam the other mains get? I would think that if you added a lot of main venting at the end of one main, it would steal some of the steam that would have gone to another main. Am I wrong on that?



Anyway, the current vents we have on the top floor radiators are Gorton D's. I think the second and third floor have Vent Rite #1s (the adjustable ones with 8 settings). The Vent Rite vents should be appropriately sized for the radiators, right? The "problem" radiator is double vented with a Gorton D on the top and a Vent Rite #1 on the bottom. If you look closely at the first picture I posted you can see the vents.



I could also get my plumber to install a Gorton D (which is similar in venting rate to a Gorton #1) in the riser near the supply valve of the problem radiator (close to where you wrote, “How many radiators are connected to this pipe” in your first response to my post). That way we would have a main vent down stream of the problem radiator... What do you think of that idea? Please let me know.



Thanks again for the response.

Rod

Vents & Insulation

Hi Jeremy-

In answer to your question on venting stealing steam from the other mains I don't see that this will be a problem. You aren't really adding much more venting. it's more of switching the present high capacity venting from the radiators (where it's possibly causing a distribution problem) to where it should be, the main vents.  More main venting doesn't use more steam, it just gets the air out and the steam in, faster.  You really can do no wrong by adding plenty of venting capacity. Here's a link on main venting that might be of help to you.

http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=415

It's to Gerry Gill's website. Gerry Gill is a Cleveland steam pro and one of the best in the business.

 I also think that the amount of steam now proportioned to the main will stay about the same. It's just that more will now arrive at the far end of the main. Think of it like a group of soldiers crossing the desert. One thousand start out but only 400 reach the other side as 600 fall out along the way. If you provide an air conditioned  shaded walkway for the soldiers, the same thousand start out but far more reach the other side. (In this case it is insulation rather than an air conditioned walkway!)



Having the air conditioned walkway doesn't increase the number of soldiers starting out and  converting the analogy from soldiers to steam I don't think the amount of steam staring out will change that much but due to the insulation the amount arriving at the far end of the main will increase. 

On placing a main vent on the pipe downsteam from the "problem" radiator. I'd do change the main venting and do the pipe insualtion first and see just how that works out. You may not need this vent. I think you'll find that the insulation makes a HUGE difference. I'd use

at least 1 inch thick insulation and 1 1/2 inch would be even better. 

Insulation is one area where you get a lot of "bang for your buck"!

Please let us know how it turns out.

- Rod

Jeremy_16

Going Forward...

Thanks for the response again, Rod. Thanks for the link as well. I think I may have read that section on Gerry Gill's website before, and it definitely has a good explanation for the reason for lots of venting.



Today we took off the Gorton D vents on the top floor radiators and replaced them with Vent Rite #1 vents. Now floors 2-4 each have Vent Rite #1 vents on the front rooms (living rooms and bedrooms; basically all rooms above the problem radiator on the same supply pipe and the supply pipe one room over) I'm going to see over the next few days how much of a difference that alone makes before changing the main venting.



We turned the boiler off for 2.5 to 3 hours so we could see how the system heats from a "cold" start. The system took 7 minutes for steam to reach the end of the main that runs through the apartment with the problem rad. It took 1 more minute to reach the riser that the problem radiator is connected to and then 1 more minute to reach the supply valve of the problem rad (so 9 minutes total from turning the boiler on for the steam to reach the problem radiator's supply valve).



After a total of 20 minutes or so of the boiler being on, the problem radiator's first column was hot, but the rest of the first section was only slightly warm at best. The top of the radiator started to get a little warmer.



After 45 minutes the radiator was hot all the way across the top only and about 1/4 down on each section. The bottom of all 3 sections from at least the half way point down was stone cold. When I checked it again after 1 hour the whole radiator was piping hot. (This may be an improvement from before, because I don't think the radiator ever got hot all the way across in 1 hours time, but it's hard to know, because I'm not living in the apartment)



The day that I shut the supply valves to the other radiators on the same supply pipe and in the rooms next door on a different supply pipe (both supply pipes come off of the same main only a few feet apart from each other: see picture from my last post that contained pictures) the problem radiator took between 20 and 30 minutes to get piping hot all the way across.



So it looks like there is still room for progress. I plan on changing the main venting next week and possibly insulating the main as well. I'll give you another update on the numbers then.



Thanks again for all of the help and ideas so far.

Jeremy_16

Venting

So I haven't had a chance to change the main venting yet, but I took another look at the current main vents location at the end of the main where the system drops in to the wet return (see picture from my post in this thread dated Dec. 13, 2010-I know not the ideal place of 15 inches back and 6 inches up). I know that antlers seem to work ok in situations like this from reading on this forum, right?



Anyway, there is a pipe right above and I'm not sure if I can get at least 6 inches vertically before we 90 horizontally. Would this still be an ok location if we only had 3 or 4 inches vertically before we 90 horizontally?



Currently the vent seems to be on a 1/8 inch pipe going up only 1 inch before it 90s. I would use a 1 inch or 3/4 inch pipe and go up 3 or 4 inches (whatever space I have available, the more the better) before I 90 over horizontally. I figure almost anything is better than the current set up right? Would this be ok, or do I (by "I" I mean my plumber) need to drill and tap another location? If so, where would you do it on the pipe and how crucial is it that I use another location, if necessary?



I'm hoping to do this work tomorrow, so any responses would be appreciated. Thanks so much for the help.

nicholas bonham-carter

best main vent location

that looks like a suitable compromise location. they also can be installed on an antler, connected to a  vertical segment of the dry return, as long as it is above the active waterline.--nbc

Rod

Main Vent Location

Hi Jeremy- On the main vent- Just do the best you can. You're thinking in the right direction. Ideally you go back 15 inches but in reality the majority of steam vents are typically attached at the end of the steam main where located now. I would just attach it there also. Remove the 1/8 inch piping and go up to 3/4 pipe. Use an antler arrangement. (You most probably have already seen this drawing by Brad White, but I've have attached it in case you need to show something to your plumber.)  The pipe union connecting the antler to the line makes  the antler easy to attach and take down for servicing. Use a tee/pipe plug (rather than an elbow) for the last venting point as this makes it easy to clean out the line or attach more vents if needed. With the 3/4 pipe you can remote it to a more suitable place (even several feet away) if necessary. The big thing is to maintain slope from the vents back to the steam main so that any condensate that gets in the line will immediately drain back. Be sure to use main vents with floats (Gorton or Hoffman) so that if water gets to them the vents will close.  If it is practical from a clearance standpoint, it might not be a bad idea to use two 90 degree street elbows together off the coming off the main as this would give you slope adjustment and would slow down any condensate coming into the vent line. Water doesn't like to go around bends!

A Very Merry Christmas to you!

- Rod

Jeremy_16

Main Vent Location

Thanks for the quick responses, Rod and Nicholas! I will use an antler on that main vent location. Good idea with 2 street 90s, Rod. I may not have the 6 vertical inches, but with two 90 elbows, the vents shouldn't get any spurts of water directly into them.



I have seen that drawing before, but thanks for including it anyway. That's also one of the reasons I was worried about the "6 inches minimum" vertically that the drawing calls for and that Dan always talks about in his books.



Anyway, I plan on starting with one Gorton #2 which is a step up from what I have now and I'll go from there. I was also planning on having my plumber install 3 venting points with ball valves (if I have enough height after breaking up the ceiling). I would leave the 2 extra venting points shut for now. The most venting that I would need is 3 Gorton #2's according to my volume calculations.



Thanks again for the help! Merry Christmas to you too!

Jeremy_16

New Main Vent and Antler

I finally managed to get my plumber over to install an antler at the end of the main. See picture in post from Dec. 13th in this thread to see what used to be there and pictures below for what we installed. The plumber tried to get the bushing out, but it was just plain stuck and it cracked when he tried to remove it. He then needed to smash the 90 and replace some piping.



We used 2 street 90's to get pitch, but unfortunately couldn't go directly upwards 6 inches because there was a riser pipe in the way. Should the way we piped the antler work ok? We used 1 inch pipe for the fittings and nipples and then used a 1 inch T that reduced to a 3/4 inch for the 3 venting ports. I wanted to keep my options open between hoffman and Gorton Vents. Right now there is one Gorton #2 installed with a bushing.



Please let me know what you think. I'll update this thread when I get more

information to let you know how it goes. Thanks for the help.

Steamhead

As long as

the antler pitches back toward the new tee, you should be OK. Be sure to leave an access panel to get at the vents if they ever need replacement. 

Dennis Foley

Boiler water height

One question that hasn't been asked is where on this piping does the boiler water level, or the level of water in whatever return piping that these radiators are attached to, fit in?  It's possible that they are under water when the system is running.

Although I can't explain why it heated with the other radiators off.

Dennis Foley

Boiler water height

One question that hasn't been asked is where on this piping does the boiler water level, or the level of water in whatever return piping that these radiators are attached to, fit in?  It's possible that they are under water when the system is running.

Although I can't explain why it heated with the other radiators off.

Rod

Radiator

Hi Jeremy- Looking good!  Let us know how it all works out.

- Rod

Denis- I've wondered about the water level too. I think it's probably okay as the radiator is high on the wall and in one of the pictures, you can see the roofs of cars so the room is at least 1st floor height. It maybe close though.

- Rod

Jeremy_16

Updates!

It's taken me awhile to get some work done, but I finally made some progress and want to give you some updates and answer some questions from above.



Dennis: Thanks for the response. I thought about that too and the boiler water level is somewhere slightly below the window sill level, about top of the condensate radiator (see first picture from December 10th 6:08 PM post)



We found a few problems with the piping that have since been corrected. I was getting fed up with a few heating issues in different buildings we manage so I contacted Steamhead in the fall and arranged to have some consulting work done. He came up recently and helped out a lot by advising on several issues (too many to list in this post, but he was very helpful - Thanks again Steamhead). Anyway, this no heat radiator was one of them. Unfortunately, not much could be done when he was there due to limited time, but we did find a few potential issues that I looked into and had corrected. We found a horizontal pipe in the ceiling above the problem radiator that was back pitched and had a reducing T that may have been causing a water pocket. Steamhead suggested removing the reducing T and we just did so this past week (see first picture with reducing T and the next picture with the corrected work done just this week - you can see the riser goes up to other apartments and down to the problem rad). After the work was done the tenants reported that the room was warmer than before, but still not quite there. (I'll explain why after the next paragraph)



It still bothered me that water may have been stacking up (however unlikely) so I had my plumber remove the top of the valve to the radiator and I started the system. Sure enough, steam came through, and a lot quicker than when the valve was intact (see pictures of top of valve off). I had removed the valve before, but not since we corrected the piping in the ceiling. Steam went all the way to the supply valve very quickly.



I think we had a distribution issue with the piping that Steamhead pointed out. By correcting it, the riser in the room with the problem radiator then heated faster. This in turn made the condensate radiator heat faster too. This made the room a bit warmer, but the steam radiator was still not working as it should.



This leads me to believe that the steam radiator on the wall may be partially blocked inside with gunk from over the years. We've taken the air vents completely off the radiator and it still does not heat quickly. However, when the top of the valve was removed, the steam seemed to arrive a lot faster to the supply. The plan now is to take the radiator down and try to flush out any gunk in there. Any other ideas or does this sound like the only option?



In addition to that, we will probably add a steam radiator to the bedroom in the apartment that only has a condensate radiator. See second picture from December 10th 6:08 PM post) There used to be a radiator there as evidenced by the T on the riser, but it must have been removed by a prior owner. Any suggestions on where to buy a 25-30 square foot EDR cast iron wall hung radiator in the Boston area (or shipped from somewhere else for the right price)?



Thanks for all of the help. This forum has been a great resource.

Steve_175

Radiators

There are two suppliers of used radiators in the Boston area that I know of. I got mine from this guy. Joel is very nice and knows his stuff.



http://www.radicalradiator.com/



There is also

http://www.antiqueplumbingandradiators.com/



I have never used them but I have driven by them a bunch of times. They have a lot of stuff on display at the street.







What part of

Jeremy_16

Radiators

Thanks for the suggestions, Steve. I knew about the second one, but not the first one. I will definitely give them a call. Good to know that they worked out well for you, too.



Looks like you started to write something at the end of your post, but it got cut off. I'm going to guess it was supposed to be "what part of Boston are you in?" I'm in Brighton so neither of those places are too far. Thanks again.

Steve_175

Good guess

On that truncated sentence.



This thread has been a fun read. Kind of like a short mystery story. How is the rehabilitated heating system doing in this extreme cold snap?

JStar

Thought.

Shouldn't the down feed risers be connected? Looks like they are plugged/capped.

Jeremy_16

JStar:

The riser is still connected to the wet return but re-directed through the condensate radiator on the floor. Remember - the water level is at about the top of the radiator. Until about a year or two ago, the down feed riser was connected and the condensate radiator was connected as well. Since tenants had been complaining about the heat, the service manager of one of the large oil companies in this area came out and suggested cutting and capping the down feed riser to direct the hot condensate only through the radiator where it would hopefully get the room a little warmer.



We did not put those floor radiators in. Someone must have done it a long time ago in response to a tenant complaining about the cold. We actually found an air vent in one of them (which of course would never work because the radiator is filled with water and not steam) which we then plugged instead. It was someone's mickey mouse way of trying to fix the problem that I am now left with. I call the floor radiator a condensate radiator because it essentially just holds condensate. I don't know if I heard it from someone else or just made it up. Anyway, it seems to help a little bit (the top of the sections generally get warm, but not the whole thing).



So best case scenario, you do not have any condensate radiator (if the apartment heated well) and the down feed riser is connected directly to the wet return. That would minimize any chance of clogs, etc. However, the condensate still manages to get back to the boiler, so I guess it's ok for now and has been for the past year or two.

Jeremy_16

Cold Weather

The building is heating ok. I just looked at the unit temperatures and it seems like the 3rd and 4th floor are very warm, 2nd floor is ok, and the first floor is a little cooler. The problem unit on the first floor is still a problem. Until I get an extra radiator in the bedroom and fix the one in the livingroom, it will probably stay cooler than the other apartments. It's not freezing by any means though, so we're making progress.



The good news is that the tenant on the second floor above the problem unit just e-mailed to say that her room is warmer since we made the repairs to the back pitched pipe with reduced T shown in the pictures from my post on Jan. 22nd.