Three radiators that don't heat past two sections...

Marcus Mead_4

I’m having a terrible time with three new radiators I added last winter to heat the back of my house.



You can see the thread here, as I completed the project.   <a href="http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/130116/Just-how-bad-is-this">http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/130116/Just-how-bad-is-this</a>



 The 1.5” piping was done very carefully, with the correct pitches for both the supply and the dryreturn through the crawl space.  Once out of the crawl space, the return then drops to the floor and becomes a wet return.  There is a Gorton #2 at the end

of the main, before it turns around to come back. 



But in spite of the main vent, the steam just seems to take longer to get back there, and then just stops after two sections (the rest of the house, even set to “1” on the Hoffmans, heating up very quickly and nicely.)



I’ve read TLAOST, especially the venting chapter, but nothing I do seems to make a difference short of shutting off the rest of the house.  On these back three radiators,

I’ve tried Hoffman 1a’s at every setting, Gorton D’s, twin Gorton D’s, even a Gorton D and a Hoffman 1a together.  I even removed the vents entirely, and it didn’t seem to matter, the radiators did not heat up past the second sections.



This AM, I shut off ALL the rest of the house, and the three troublesome radiators obviously heated up just fine.  Once it was warm, I opened the rest of the system.  Now, as the day progresses, things are cooling off back there, and as the boiler come back on from time to time, the back of the house can't stay war.



So here are the specs on the system:



Boiler is a Utica 187, produces 482 square feet of steam (radiators require 421.)  I had to re-pipe the Hartford loop after several members told me the professional I hired to install it had done it all wrong, so it has a nice drop-header now (see the pics, <a href="http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/130116/Just-how-bad-is-this">http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/130116/Just-how-bad-is-this</a>  I was awfully proud of that job, being a rookie homeowner.)  The pressuretrol is set to a .5 cut in, so a cut-out is about 2 (it is a Honeywell).  The sight glass on the boiler stays nice and steady, before the new header it used to bounce around like a hurricane



The radiators in the house add up to 421 Sq Feet of Radiation.   All the radiators in the

house have brand new Hoffman 1a’s, most all of which are set to “1” to try to give the back of the house more time to heat up.  Which it does not do.



So far, I have:



<ul><li>Re-piped the Hartford loop.</li><li>Checked all the Main vents (two Gorton #1’s on the new main and the longer old main, but two short mains with two radiators apiece get Gorton #2’s.)  They are venting okay.  Steam is filling the mains very well, but perhaps a little slow on the new main..</li><li>Set the cut in back to .5 (the professional had it set to 2, I thought setting it back would fix it as per TLAOSH p. 108, but no dice).</li><li>Skimmed the system many times to get out any left over cutting oil from the

Hartford Loop job.</li><li>1” of Knauff pipe insulation on all pipes.</li><li>

There should be more than enough steam coming out of the Utica; pipes are big enough and well vented; radiators have new vents; what am I missing?



Two maps attached, the troublesome radiators go out to the sun room, the blue line.



Thanks in advance….</li></ul>

Mike Kusiak_2

Low firing rate?

Does the system ever build enough pressure to cycle the pressuretrol? Do you have a low pressure gauge to see any pressure rise?



Have you checked the firing rate of the burner? Perhaps you are underfired and the boiler does not have the capacity to fill the system with steam with the new radiators connected.

Marcus Mead_4

Pressuretrol

Does the system ever build enough pressure to cycle the pressuretrol? Do

you have a low pressure gauge to see any pressure rise?



Unsure-  I've attached some pics of the pressuretrol and the pressure gauge.  I have never seen the pressure gauge move.   Is that normal?  As a homeowner, I've finally got the basics of piping and venting more or less down, but apart from the fact that system pressure should be set between .5 and 2 (venting chapter of TLAOSH) I'm not to familiar with what the pressuretrol is supposed to do.  Or how it does it.



Sounds like perhaps we actually have no pressure at all, and I need to turn it up?  It was set at 2 by the guy who installed it, and things more or less worked, I turned it down to .5 after reading that chapter, as it sounded like maybe it was shutting the vents.  But in light of the fact that the vents were removed to no effect, that probably wasn't it.



Have you checked the firing rate of the burner? Perhaps you are underfired and the boiler does not have the capacity to fill the system with steam with the new

radiators connected.



Where do I find that?  Again, unfortunately, I put a lot of trust in the contractor who put it in, but unfortunately, neither he, nor anyone else within hours of driving (Northern Michigan) seems to have any real knowledge of how these systems work.   I've been fixing this system since he left seven years ago, and would have been institutionalized if I had not found this site!



The boiler was considerably larger than the one it replaced; the old one was 145,000 BUT's, this one is 187,500, and based on the output of steam (482 sq feet) vs. the radiators need (421) it should be enough.  I have also tried shutting off two or three of the other radiators, but nothing really seems to help short of shutting down the rest of the house.



It seems to me logical that the boiler is simply not putting out enough steam, but I'm not sure how that can be, given the numbers I've got and my understanding of them.

Mike Kusiak_2

Pressure and steam generating capacity

First, you have to understand that the pressuretrol cannot create pressure. It is a limit switch which only prevents the pressure from rising too high. If your boiler cannot produce enough pressure, the pressuretrol cannot increase it, only shut off the burner to reduce pressure if it gets too high. So its setting may have no effect at all in your specific situation.



You really need to get a low pressure gauge like a 0-3 PSI, so you can accurately monitor the pressure in the system. If you turn up the thermostat 5 degrees, let the boiler run for several hours and still see no indication on a 3 PSI  gauge, then you can safely assume the boiler is incapable of filling all of the radiators with steam.



Even though the boiler rating may indicate its capacity is sufficient for the installed EDR, this is only true if it is also firing at its normal rating. If someone previously downfired the burner by decreasing the gas manifold pressure, then the actual output may be nowhere near the nameplate rating. You can check this by "clocking" the gas meter, or timing how long it takes to consume a given volume of gas. If your meter has a 1 or 2 cu ft per revolution dial, you can see how many seconds it takes for one revolution. By using a little math, you can figure out how many cubic feet of gas it burns in one hour of continuous firing. 100 cubic feet per hour would translate to a BTU input of about 102,000 BTU per hour. If the gas useage is significantly less than what it would be expected to be from its input rating, then you cannot expect the boiler to generate its full steam output.



If your contractor downfired the boiler to match the original radiation and then you added quite a bit more, then that might explain your situation.

Marcus Mead_4

understood!

Okay- that makes sense!  Thanks for the clear explanation. 



We are on propane, so there is an external 500 gallon tank with no meter (did I mention we live far from anywhere?  We do!  )



So I probably can't check the gas consumption very easily.  Is there another way?  I'd be surprised if the installer downfired the boiler...  but if he did, how would he do that? 



The unit was converted from Natural Gas to Propane with the kit, so the orifices were changed.  That's the only modification I know of.  But I just talked to a friend of mine, who said that perhaps the manifold came set for natural gas (around 4 or 5) instead of propane (7 or 8), so that could be it?  He's got a manometer- are we on the right track?

Mike Kusiak_2

Propane

I have no experience with propane, but converting might have had some effect on the BTU input rate. You might post that question on the main wall. Perhaps someone there could tell you how you could measure the input and how it might be affected by the conversion.

Marcus Mead_4

Propane

I just edited my post, but you had already replied!



But I just talked to a friend of mine, who said that perhaps the

manifold came set for natural gas (around 4 or 5) instead of propane (7

or 8), so that could be it?  He's got a manometer- are we on the right

track?



Propane works great, for those of us who live out here, but everything we buy has to be switched over.

Mike Kusiak_2

Manifold pressure

Normal manifold pressure for natural gas is set at 3.5 " WC, so if propane requires 7 then that definitely would have an effect and cause a low firing rate. Better check with someone knowledgeable and the setup specs for the propane conversion.



You might ask Tim in the Gas Heating section.

Rod

Hi !

Hi Marcus-  Good to hear from you again! Sorry to see you are still having problems. I thought after all your hard work last winter things would be running smoothly this winter.

It sounds like Mike has you on the right track. Check with Tim over in the gas section of the board. He's very sharp in that area.  As I remember your boiler is a Utica so you might want to contact them and ask what the changes and specifications are necessary for your model boiler to run on propane. Have them email you any tech sheets they have on the subject.

- Rod

Steamhead

The conversion kit

would have included a replacement regulator spring and cap to change the valve to propane operation. If this was not installed along with the new orifices, the firing rate would be too low.



A qualified gas technician would know how to do the conversion and verify the results. This is not something a homeowner should try unless the homeowner is also a tech.

BobC

just wondering

If all that piping is insulated (everything in the basement). If not you are probably trying to feed more EDR than you think you are.



Also the posts on checking the firing rate make a lot of sense to me.



Bob

Marcus Mead_4

Hey Rod!

Great to see you to, Rod!  Without your help, as I said up top, I would have been in the Loony Bin by now.



Again, I think we're really close.  I can see it's not a venting problem, so I think we're on the right track by looking at the gas supply.  It would not surprise me; the guy who installed the boiler installed it with two bullhead T's, no main vents....   it wasn't very good.



My friend Ben who will help me check the gas pressure is actually a heating and cooling guy, he is the manager or Grand Traverse Refrigeration,  a local company.  Most all their work is with hot water and forced air, of course, but he's also the one who helped me pipe the head, he's a good friend will all kinds of tools, and our wives car-pool the kids to school together.  So a good friend who will know what this should look like.







BobC-  Yes, everything is insulated with 1" snap-on fiberglass pipe insulation.   Thanks for the suggestion!

Marcus Mead_4

Square one? AGAIN???

So Ben and I got down and checked the manifold pressure on both sides.  It was a "little" low on the boiler side; Utica calls for 10 inches of water at the manifold, with 11 to 14 inches in the pipe.  We had 9.5 inches at the manifold and only about 10.5 at the pipe, which dropped slightly when I turned on the gas dryer and stove in the kitchen.



So we increased the pipe to about 13.5, and the manifold pressure to the rated 10 inches.  So far, there has been no difference to the back rooms. 



I've also noticed that the Hoffman 1A's that I bought to try to control this a little better keep clogging with water.  About one or two radiators a day "drop off" and stop heating, I pull the vents off and they are full of water.  Probably not related- but maybe?



Still not registering any pressure at the boiler, even when I shut off all the house but the back and all three radiators are full of steam (and vents even hiss as they try to stay closed.)



Not sure what to say except that we seem to have enough gas, capacity, and venting, but not enough steam to fill the system.  ANY other ideas?

jpf321

you've tried many things ...

How about TRV's .... they will automatically "shed load" from the rooms that are heated to the rooms that need heat .. in fact, you really only need a couple TRV's for the well heating rooms ..



I installed a couple TRVs this season .. since my new boiler was right on the edge of having capacity.. since my TRV's are installed, I have not had a single problem or complaint.



Vent them medium to large .. get those rooms warmed up fast .. TRV then shuts down and the steam is available to the cold rooms .. DO NOT TRV the t-stat effecting rads.. and vent the t-stat rads a bit slower .. you want to run longer to make sure you get enough run with the steam to the hot side and THEN the cold side.



hope this helps .. there's lotsa recommendations about TRVs on here .. I have Macon Controls OPS TRVs settings are at around 5 or 5/6 (2nd flr bedrooms), 4 in kitchen and foyer, 7/8 in 3rd flr bedroom. even if you could shed the load from 1 or 2 "well heating rads" you may be better off.

Marcus Mead_4

I must be learning

You know, that was the last thing I though I could do to fix the problem, so I was actually thinking in that direction.



But it's just driving me nuts because I really shouldn't need any, there SHOULD be enough steam; what's holding the thing back somehow?



All the same, could you drop me a link to a good unit on PEX?  Last time I looked into it, there were a couple of different ones, and I don't want to order the wrong one.



Thanks!

Rod

Wet Steam and TRVs

Hi Marcus- 

    Okay - so you've checked out the burner and the conversion etc you feel was done okay? I know nothing about propane gas burners so have no advice on that . Burners are burners so it doesn't have to be a steam pro to check out the burner for you just a "burner man" with the right test instruments..



The "water in the vents" you mentioned bothers me as this is usually a sign of wet steam.  If the steam produced is dry, there won't be water droplets on the inside of the sight glass above the waterline.  "Wet steam" is bad because the water droplets carried along with the steam tend to cause the steam to condense and so especially over a long length of pipe, the steam just condenses in the pipe and doesn't reach the end of the main as steam.

Dan suggests filling the boiler to about 1 inch from the top of the sight glass and if then the water spills over into the sight glass when the boiler is making steam, you have a boiler water problem. Wet Steam can be caused by contaminated water or by having too high a PH . Ideally the boiler water PH should be between 7 and 9. Skimming takes care of the contaminated water.  I've had to skim my boiler 7 or 8 times after I did some pipe work to get the oil out. (I now carefully wash my piping inside and out after threading it, but before installing it.)

You might also test the boiler by shutting off ALL the radiators as steam pressure should then build until it reaches the settings on the pressuretrol which will then shut off the burner.

This is also a good test of the pressuretrol settings.



TRVs- Here is a copy of a post I did a while back on TRVs for someone.

TRVs stand for Thermostatic Radiator Valves.  They are used on hot water and steam systems to regulate the heat output of the radiator.  On the models for  hot water and two pipe steam, the TRV is installed on the inlet pipe to the radiator. On a one pipe steam system, the TRV is installed between the radiator and the steam vent. A one pipe steam TRV also needs a vacuum breaker to allow air back into the radiator when the boiler shuts off. On the Macon TRV, the vacuum breaker is external and on the Danfoss TRV, it is internal (built in)

.

Since you have a one pipe steam system it is important to get the model designed for one pipe steam. As mentioned above the one pipe TRV is mounted on the radiator vent hole, ,between the radiator and the radiator vent.  When steam enters the radiator, if the room temperature is below the setting on the TRV, the escaping air goes thru the TRV and out the air vent, when steam reached the air vent it closes just as it would without the TRV. When the boiler shuts off, the vacuum breaker allows air to re enter the radiator.  This cycle continues until the room temperature reaches the setting on the TRV. The TRV valve now closes and prevents air from escaping out the vent. With the air trapped in the radiator, steam is now prevented from entering  until the TRV drops below the set temperature and reopens, allowing air to escape and steam to now fill the radiator again.

I use TRVs on about half of the radiators in the house. They are really handy in the bedrooms and also allow me to shut the heat off in unused rooms to save fuel. (The minimum setting is 42 degrees so this makes sure the room doesn’t freeze)



Here's some links to several different makes /models.

 Macon model for one pipe steam -   http://www.maconcontrol.com/opsk1204.html



Danfoss TRVs:

Danfoss 1 pipe steam model -  http://na.heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/RA2000%201PS-DS.pdf



Danfoss Animation

Note: These animations show TRVs for hot water systems- the steam ones are very similar:   http://na.heating.danfoss.com/Content/161a8b0f-a195-42b2-9487-7ee4083398cf_MNU17392440_SIT209.html

 

Pex Supply has Danfoss. For a one pipe steam system you want the Model RA2000 1PS Here's the link:

http://www.pexsupply.com/Danfoss-013G0140-Thermostatic-Rad-Valve-w-Vac-Breaker-1-Pipe-Steam-5551000-p

With the Danfoss, the radiator vent isn't included with the TRV. With Macon it is.

With the Danfoss -You'll need a straight radiator vent though a regular angled vent will work if you attach it to the TRV with a 90 degree street elbow. (looks a bit "Mickey Mouse" but it works)

I’ve also attached a couple of PDFs with more info.

- Rod

jpf321

you can also use ....

angle vents if you turn the entire TRV assembly 45deg :-)

Mark N

Rads not heating

Marcus



I'm coming late to this discussion but I'll try to catch up. Is the main leading to the rads that don't heat 1.5"? I think I read that somewhere. Are the other mains 2" or 2.5"? The smaller pipe will cause a higher pressure drop the steam will always favor the bigger pipe. You might have to reduce the venting on the other mains to get the steam to go down the new main. The rads will work you've proven that by turning off the rads on the other mains. You need to balance the main venting to get the steam to the end of all of them at the same time.



Mark

mel rowe

Time interval to fill mains

Just an interested Michigan homeowner here.  I wondered if you have timed how long it takes for steam to get to the end of each of the mains?  This came to mind because of the question about the venting of the two different sized mains.  Could it be that the main feeding the hot rads is venting much faster and shutting off the stat before the system has time to fill and feed the cold rads?

Marcus Mead_4

Rod is CORRECT once again!

I had already skimmed the boiler several times, but I did not know about Dan's test.  Yes.  The water sheets down the glass from above.  Actually, it's done that for years, didn't realize that wasn't normal.



I have skimmed the boiler periodically, but we did add probably about 90 lineal feet of piper last winter, and many pieces were cut and threaded.  So apparently, that oil is still working its way out.



I waited a little while because I wanted to post SUCCESS.  We're closer; I have skimmed this thing three times for hours at a time, just a trickle one five gallon bucket at a time.  I've also been draining the boiler to get the brown rusty crud out. 



But I'm still getting the sheeting in the glass, and a slightly bouncing water level.



I will continue to skim (I'm probably on my fifth time now).   Should I consider using a chemical boiler cleaner like Squick?  It's supposed to help remove oil, but there seem to be different opinions on it.

Rod

Skimming Info

Hi Marcus- So things are getting better with more skimming and the radiators are now working better?  It sounds like your system was very dirty. Mine was like that as it had been left for years with minimum maintenance. It doesn't take much contamination to throw the boiler water off. Boil a pan of water on your stove and then add a drop or two of cooking oil and watch the change in the bounce in the water when it's boiling.

 I drained my boiler several times and then skimmed it on seven consecutive Saturdays (had to work during the weekdays)  I collected about one  5 gal bucket over 2 hours each Saturday before I got the water line steady. I now drain and refill my boiler twice a year, once in the spring at the end of the heating season and once again in the fall just before the start of the next heating season.

Skimming additives- I've attached a pdf page of info I've saved on skimming which I thought might be of use to you.  I'm a fan of the Rhomar 9150 as it is easy to use and does a good job. However it isn't cheap and if I did it again I think I'd take a long look at the Arm & Hammer Washing Soda.



Another thing- If you haven't checked your water line mark on the sight glass recently, you might want to double check it. Make sure that the waterline you use on the sight glass is correct for steam.  The measurements are in the Installation manual usually on the boiler piping page. They give you a measurement off the floor to where the waterline should be on the sight glass when the burner is turned off and the boiler cold. Excess water just wastes fuel.  After skimming, check that the waterline is now correct and always bring the new water in the boiler to the boiler to drive off excess oxygen.

- Rod

Marcus Mead_4

Going to try Arm and Hammer

Okay, I am re-piping my skim port to go directly into the hole in the basement floor so I don't have to empty buckets (I've missed a couple now...)



And I want to use the Arm and Hammer, since the local heating supply store is supposed to be able to get Rhomar (according to the suppliers web site), but says tey don;t know what I am talking about, not a good sign. 



I was going to try TSP, but saw some warnings that if that gets into your mains, it can loosen things you don't want loosened and cause problems.



With the Arm and Hammer, do I just have to get it into the boiler and wet returns, let it sit for a while, and flush it out real well?  Or do I need to actually boil it and let it go through the system for a few days?

Rod

Washing Soda

Hi Marcus- Attached in a PDF are the instructions on using Arm & Hammer Washing Soda from Page 15 in the Peerless I&O Manual. From what i can see the washing soda is just used for the cleaning the boiler and not during operation as it mentions flushing the boiler a couple of times to get the washing soda cleaned out. 

That is one of the advantages to the Rhomar you can run your system with it in place for several days and then flush it out. Your experience with the supplier is quite typical. You might just want to contact Rhomar direct and ask who stocks 9150 near you or sells on the internet.

I'd try the Washing Soda and see how that works out. With a really dirty system you may have to repeat the operation several times.  Do a good skim and then live with it a while and then skim again if necessary. It may take multiple times to get all the contaminates out of the system.

- Rod